Guns

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Re: Guns
« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2013, 01:15:51 PM »
From what I'm hearing about the weapons in America, I'm surprised that anyone would be stupid enough to break into a home when they know that someone is at home. bibibibibi

CWL, that info on texting and driving was really interesting and important. As one of the "old farts" who does not keep up with technology, it is a wake up call to me, particularly when I am driving. I am being called upon to go out bush and look after the two Grandsons for a couple of months; boy, are they going to be glad to see the back of me after I finish drilling them about this topic. bfbfbfbfbf My neighbour and I were at the movies yesterday and we were the only people in the theatre who were not using some sort of device (cut it out EL, I just read your mind) whilst waiting for the movie to start. What is wrong with people that they can't just sit quietly or chat to their neighbour? bibibibibi

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caley1313

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Re: Guns
« Reply #136 on: May 13, 2013, 12:50:42 AM »
I may be a bleeding-heart, lily-livered, tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-eating milk-sop European here but I would still argue that, to me, pointing a gun at anyone at anytime is a dashed silly thing to do. Unless you actually want to commit a felony, then waving firearms around is an excellent way of achieving that goal. Not saying that people can't have guns, some countries have laws safeguarding that right and they seem to enjoy having them, so peace be with them and all, however I would still state that pointing those guns at people, without the intention of committing manslaughter or murder, is a fooolish thing to do. Now, y'all can get up in rigteous indignation and tell me what a ignorant dumbass I am, but please don't, because you might as well try to convince a kangaroo to not jump or a fish to take salsa lessons. agagagagag agagagagag

Your are not an ignorant dumbass...you just haven't been listening. It's about the money, amigo. The rest is smoke and mirrors.
Carpe Diem, mi amigo, or...Seize the Big Fish as they say here in Carolina

Re: Guns
« Reply #137 on: May 13, 2013, 12:54:12 AM »
I may be a bleeding-heart, lily-livered, tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-eating milk-sop European here but I would still argue that, to me, pointing a gun at anyone at anytime is a dashed silly thing to do. Unless you actually want to commit a felony, then waving firearms around is an excellent way of achieving that goal. Not saying that people can't have guns, some countries have laws safeguarding that right and they seem to enjoy having them, so peace be with them and all, however I would still state that pointing those guns at people, without the intention of committing manslaughter or murder, is a fooolish thing to do. Now, y'all can get up in rigteous indignation and tell me what a ignorant dumbass I am, but please don't, because you might as well try to convince a kangaroo to not jump or a fish to take salsa lessons. agagagagag agagagagag

Your are not an ignorant dumbass...you just haven't been listening. It's about the money, amigo. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

Well, sure. But even if we accept that premise, then what? Is there anything that us well-meaning idealists can do about the situation?

Re: Guns
« Reply #138 on: May 13, 2013, 02:28:40 AM »
That is a moot point to make, everything is about the money.
"Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination." Oscar Wilde.

"It's all oojah cum spiffy". Bertie Wooster.
"The stars are God's daisy chain" Madeleine Bassett.

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A-Train

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Re: Guns
« Reply #139 on: May 13, 2013, 03:34:44 AM »
That is a moot point to make, everything is about the money.

Yeah, there are financial interests involved and in play, but I don't buy this premise.  The gun owners are adamant about this right. It runs more deeply in our culture than money.  Okay, maybe not THAT deep, but it certainly stands on its own without the money.
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

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Re: Guns
« Reply #140 on: May 13, 2013, 03:45:59 AM »
That is a moot point to make, everything is about the money.

Yeah, there are financial interests involved and in play, but I don't buy this premise.  The gun owners are adamant about this right. It runs more deeply in our culture than money.  Okay, maybe not THAT deep, but it certainly stands on its own without the money.

Ahhhh, BUT the gun lobby (money guys) and the NRA, keep telling and reminding and telling and reminding the people about how it is their right. About how taking away anything is violating their rights.  If you tell someone often enough about something then they will believe it.

As teachers, we know if we tell students they are smart and can do something they will try harder vs the Chinese way of complaining and telling students / children they are stupid and lazy if they don't get the highest mark in the class.  

What the USA has that doesn't exist (or is minimal) in other countries is the gun manufacturers lobby.  
Be kind to dragons for thou are crunchy when roasted and taste good with brie.

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caley1313

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Re: Guns
« Reply #141 on: May 13, 2013, 02:23:32 PM »
That is a moot point to make, everything is about the money.

Nothing moot about it. T'is an absolute.

Is there anything we can do about it?   No.
Carpe Diem, mi amigo, or...Seize the Big Fish as they say here in Carolina

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caley1313

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Re: Guns
« Reply #142 on: May 13, 2013, 02:28:14 PM »
That is a moot point to make, everything is about the money.

Yeah, there are financial interests involved and in play, but I don't buy this premise.  The gun owners are adamant about this right. It runs more deeply in our culture than money.  Okay, maybe not THAT deep, but it certainly stands on its own without the money.

You can't have it both ways. It is either about the money or not. Take the NRA and their deep-pocket lobbying. Do you really think the politicians of America wouldn't have made some significant restrictions to gun products and regulations over the past 30 years if it weren't for NRA handouts? Who supports the NRA? The large and small LLCs of the military industrial complex. Connect the dots. No, idealism never trumps money.
Carpe Diem, mi amigo, or...Seize the Big Fish as they say here in Carolina

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A-Train

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Re: Guns
« Reply #143 on: May 13, 2013, 07:01:26 PM »
That is a moot point to make, everything is about the money.

Yeah, there are financial interests involved and in play, but I don't buy this premise.  The gun owners are adamant about this right. It runs more deeply in our culture than money.  Okay, maybe not THAT deep, but it certainly stands on its own without the money.

You can't have it both ways. It is either about the money or not.

Well, yes I CAN have it both ways because both elements are relevant factors.  Everyone knows about the NRA lobby, (actually, the NRA is not the biggest gun lobby by a long shot; sorry for the pun), but if you don't think that the culture of gun ownership doesn't run deep at the grass roots level, just log on to Facebook or any social media.  

It's easy to dismiss this as being owned by the fanatics, but that distorts the truth regarding how many responsible gun owners/hunters that share a wholesome, (yes, wholesome), family experience of hunting that goes back generations.  The opening day of deer hunting season, (always overlapping with Thanksgiving), is a ritual and rite of passage that is truly a wonderful event for boys and girls coming of age and a family bonding tradition that can and should be left alone.

You may find hunting disgusting and that opinion is fine, but if you belittle this set of gun supporters you've reduced the discussion to an argument and lost a valuable ally.  These people want safety as much as you do.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 09:02:37 PM by A-Train »
"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

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Re: Guns
« Reply #144 on: May 13, 2013, 08:22:38 PM »
My neighbour and I were at the movies yesterday and we were the only people in the theatre who were not using some sort of device (cut it out EL, I just read your mind) whilst waiting for the movie to start.

 afafafafaf afafafafaf afafafafaf

And, back on topic.  People:

messing with phones DURING movies
too stupid to use turn signals
who either can't count to 10 or can't read the sign over the express checkout lanes
etc., etc., etc.

are why I never got a concealed carry permit in the USA.  I'd have to have 3 shopping carts to carry all the ammo I'd need for a quick trip to town. bababababa

Keeping my guns at home while living out in the boondocks with only dangerous animals and the occasional druggie either wanting to break in or just running by while having a really bad trip saved me a lot on ammo bills.
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CaseyOrourke

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Re: Guns
« Reply #145 on: May 13, 2013, 09:57:22 PM »
I may be a bleeding-heart, lily-livered, tree-hugging, Birkenstock-wearing, tofu-eating milk-sop European

I heard the same terms used to describe Oregonians, but I digress.

I looked up the intentional homicide rate worldwide done by the UN Office on Drugs and Crime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate. The murder rate per 100,000 people in the United States is actually quite low, 4.8%. Honduras has a 91.6% murder rate.

The US is #1 in gun ownership 88.8 guns per 100 people where Honduras is at #88 with 6.2 guns per 100.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Even with death by firearms, the US is still not the worst on a percentage basis (#57).  That's reserved for Jamaica #75 and Honduras #74.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

So for all the talk about gun ownership leading to a higher murder rate is hogwash.  People who want to murder somebody will use whatever means or whatever weapon is available.


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Re: Guns
« Reply #146 on: May 13, 2013, 10:26:37 PM »
So for all the talk about gun ownership leading to a higher murder rate is hogwash.  People who want to murder somebody will use whatever means or whatever weapon is available.

I would tend to agree regarding the suicide rate too.  If you really want to end it all, there are plenty of highly effective means.  The only ways a gun to increase the likelihood are:

1. If a gun is right there and the next alternate takes time to arrange, some people might reconsider.
2.  The chances of failing an attempted suicide by gun are significantly lower than by many other common methods.

#2 would be very hard to quantify due to the number of so-called suicide attempts that are only intended to draw attention and not to actually result in death.  It can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between a failed suicide attempt and a fake suicide attempt.

For those truly intent on suicide, but who don't like guns, an easy alternate method is to soak yourself in gasoline, light up, and leap from a 50+ story building.  Make sure to notify the authorities and press just before hand.  This way you'll have a clear landing zone and there will also be better videos of your final moments for YouTube.  Don't forget to shove a few beer bottles full of gasoline in your pockets first so that you end it all with a big fireball on impact.  uuuuuuuuuu
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A-Train

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Re: Guns
« Reply #147 on: May 13, 2013, 11:42:36 PM »
So for all the talk about gun ownership leading to a higher murder rate is hogwash.  People who want to murder somebody will use whatever means or whatever weapon is available.

I would tend to agree regarding the suicide rate too.  If you really want to end it all, there are plenty of highly effective means. 


I used to firmly believe this as well. But recently the U.S. Army has been doing much research into suicide prevention because of the high rates. I don't remember the specifics, (I could probably find it again), but they found that just by making the prescription medicine caps harder to open, they lowered the rates of suicide by overdose.

Before someone replies with the obvious retort, I already realize this is not going to prevent ALL suicides by any stretch of the imagination. But the point being that suicide is often a very impulsive act and by forcing the person to take more time, the emotion sometimes subsides.  Would anybody's second amendment rights be irreversibly wounded by a mandatory waiting period to buy a gun or requirements to store and trigger-lock all weapons?



"The young do not know enough to be prudent, and therefore attempt the impossible and achieve it, generation after generation.

Pearl S. Buck

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Re: Guns
« Reply #148 on: May 13, 2013, 11:47:20 PM »
I wonder if those hard to open bottles also discourage people from taking the correct dosages of medications on the proper schedule. kkkkkkkkkk

Suicide reduction via frustration.  Damn, that's depressing. bibibibibi

I'm a Suicidal Failure, I've got to get some help
I have Suicidal Tendencies but I can't kill myself

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Stil

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Re: Guns
« Reply #149 on: May 14, 2013, 12:13:21 AM »

So for all the talk about gun ownership leading to a higher murder rate is hogwash.  People who want to murder somebody will use whatever means or whatever weapon is available.


I'm not sure that the talk can be viewed as hogwash based on the statistics shown, because that assumes gun ownership as the only factor in murder rate. You can't compare Honduras and the US based only on this. Their may indeed be no difference in the murder rate in the US were guns to be legislated as illegal but using another country with different economics, culture, population density, etc as the example is not useful.

The US has it's own culture and it has to looked at in a vacuum for that discussion.

I agree that if you want to murder someone or commit suicide there are many ways to accomplish the goal but I tend to think spur of the moment murders and especially accidental deaths would decrease. That said, it's interesting that with most difficult problems of society, liberal people generally talk about education being the key to change, however with this issue, they are quick to say "make a law".