Dating students?

What gives foreigners the right to think common sense and decency goes out the window the moment they arrive in another country? Dare I say it, it's usually the MALE foreign teachers that are the most trouble! Sorry, but it's true. And you wonder why so many ads say 'female preferred'?

I don't know what it is with male obsession with intimacy...I'm sure most only come to China to find a wife!

*dodging various fruit being thrown*

I prefer to make a different comparison rather than by gender.

Of the dozen or so males I have known here who dated students and the 4 females (2 straight, 2 gay) who dated students, none of them had been teachers before they came to China. I haven't met (so far that I know of) any foreigners, male or female, who were teachers before they came to China and who have dated students here.

The behaviour of a group does not mean one should automatically join that group. ...Teachers who date students should not be teachers, whether they are teachers in China, the West, on Mars, anywhere, that is my unwavering opinion.

I agree with the points expressed and would not date a student.  However, it's worth looking at the issue from other points of view.  If this practice is acceptable in China, (and I'm not saying it is), then you can legitimately argue that it is not unethical.  Just try obeying the Western rules-of-the-road while driving here some time and see where it gets you.  Or just crossing the street for that matter.

Like I said, I agree with the overall point, but I do find it interesting that some from the West think that their moral point of view is the only one acceptable. 

If the head of your school were to ask you to increase a student's grade as a personal favor to him, would you do so?  Would you quit before relenting to the request?

I'm sure this one has been talked about on here before...

Much like everyone else said, there is definitely an ethical side that should be taken into account: male or female, you should never ever date someone you're in a position of power over.

Now, teacher-student relationship, big no no in most people's books but.. but... (getting ready to dodge rotten eggs) what if it's not your student? What if it just happens to be a student in the same establishment but not one that falls under your direct tutelage? Where's the harm in that as long as the usual disclaimers about consenting adults/age are taken into account?

Another case that comes to mind is Ex students? once a person is no longer in your care, does that make them fair game? does it make it OK to date them? One could argue that the teacher-student relationship never dies out.

also, it's not fair to put it squarely as a Male Teacher- Female Student kinda situation. I have met some Female teachers with predator instincts that rival those of the sleaziest males i know...

You may have answered your own question by saying you should never date someone over which you have a position of power.  In China don't all teachers have a position of power compared to students?  That's why I think the rule breaks down a little on the fringes.

I agree with the points expressed and would not date a student.  However, it's worth looking at the issue from other points of view.  If this practice is acceptable in China, (and I'm not saying it is), then you can legitimately argue that it is not unethical.  Just try obeying the Western rules-of-the-road while driving here some time and see where it gets you.  Or just crossing the street for that matter.


If the head of your school were to ask you to increase a student's grade as a personal favor to him, would you do so?  Would you quit before relenting to the request?

I humbly disagree. I don't think it has ever been "acceptable" in China to have intimate relationships with students, much like it has never been "acceptable" for officials to receive bribes in the form of money or gifts, however, both are practices found from one end of the Middle Kingdom to the other. When it comes to Teacher-Student relationships, much like corruption, China tends to take a Colonel Schultz approach to the matter.
As for your question: No, I would not. My school already tried something like that with me. A student coming back from a stay in the US had to pass my course and the school wanted me to just give her a grade. I said no. Told them that if the student wanted to pass the course, she could find some way of doing it. She could have contacted me whilst in America, she did not. I told them that asking me to blithely pass the student was an insult to me and the students who had worked damn hard to pass the course.

If the student is not your student, then I would say the rule still applies. When you are employed as a teacher at a school, all the students are your students. You, as a teacher, represent the Adults, the responsible ones, the people that students can come to for help and guidance. hus one should not have other things in mind when interacting with students.  . Consentual adults disclaimer....There are very few students here I would hazard to label as "adults".

Consentual adults disclaimer....There are very few students here I would hazard to label as "adults".

that's a whole different discussion.

I can offer two points of view on the matter:

When I was in college I dated a teacher at my same university. I was an bit older than the other students, and a junior. He was teaching freshman, and also taught a class I'd never take. We were pretty equal when it comes to maturity levels, and thought now I don't know what I saw in him, at the time it was your normal, healthy, albeit short-lived romance.

I feel that as FT's we have an obligation, not just to our students and our own reputations, but to the reputations of other FT's as well. We have to think, "How will this affect these Chinese people's views of Americans, Canadians, Brits, Aussies, etc?" I think that dating a student leaves a bad impression in school's minds (this means foreigners, and not other Chinese teachers), and that's just not fair to the teacher that will come after you.

And, I just have to admit there's something distasteful to me about the whole idea. I love my students, but they're really little kids in a lot of ways. Younger women are already at a disadvantage when dating older men, but this maturity divide could be insurmountable! Also, the fact of the matter is that if you're willing to abuse the teacher/student relationship, I can't imagine you're too great of a person anyway, and that just leads to a more twisted relationship.

As for dating college kids who aren't your students, someone said that as a teacher ALL students are your students. And I'm inclined to agree with them.

This whole issue to me seems like a gray area, only becuase so many forigners have gone and thrown a big bucket of water over what should be a pretty clear canvas (this is the extended metaphor I will be running with)

In one instance, I have a friend here, who is dating his ex student. She is still a student of the establishment, but no longer under his direct influence. They are very happy and I see little problem with it, however when I casually brought up the point that dating a student is unethical, somebody else was quick to laugh and say I really put my foot in my mouth there.


I have also pretty much been told that there is no problem with dating students here, by a fair few different people, both foreign and chinese.

There is also that stance that 'alls fair in love and war' which seems to be used to cover a whole manner of sins here.


After giving it some serious thought, I'm not sure where I stand on the matter. My age has a small bit of impact. I am the youngest ft in Nanchang I think, and am only 2 years older than my students (minus my fresher class) One of which is particularly hot, and I think would put out if I was to approach the subject.

I think that were I to do that there would be few ramifications...except that I dont believe I could go through with it. The part of my brain that has been trained to think that it is unethical kicks in every time. It just feels like a bad idea to me.

I'm not in PRC.  I teach students in our Dept of Corrections, whose ages currently range from 15 to 41.  I have had a student who was 60.  But would I ever cross the ethical line about dating students even were I to be unmarried?  NO.  Emphatically and unequivocally, NO!! 

Dating a student is NOT ethical.  It is NOT moral.  It is WRONG.  If you can't keep your hand out of the cookie jar, get out of the kitchen.

 

Quote from: A-Train on November 08, 2010, 07:37:58 PM

If the head of your school were to ask you to increase a student's grade as a personal favor to him, would you do so?  Would you quit before relenting to the request?

I humbly disagree. I don't think it has ever been "acceptable" in China to have intimate relationships with students, much like it has never been "acceptable" for officials to receive bribes in the form of money or gifts...

A student coming back from a stay in the US had to pass my course and the school wanted me to just give her a grade.

You, as a teacher, represent the Adults, the responsible ones, ....There are very few students here I would hazard to label as "adults".

We're on the same page, but I disagree here and there.  Your "grade enhancement" example is much more extreme than what I asked and what I have found to be common practice here.  I make no judgment on this as the people I see complying with requests to increase grades are good, kind, ethical people.  This is a culture difference and I don't find what they do repugnant.

I don't date students, but that's because I think it would greatly complicate, sidetrack and hinder the learning process, (that's why I'm here); not because I represent the adults.  I represent myself.  If a student wants to infer that all teachers are like me, they're welcome to make that mistake and learn differently later.

I'm not too sure about the acceptability of professors sleeping with their graduate students.  I keep hearing that it's pretty common.  As for bribes, it is certainly acceptable in many parts of the world and I have first-hand knowledge of it happening in China with the claim that it is common, but I can't be sure about that.

Assuming these things are acceptable, however, doesn't it make them ethical?

Dating a student is NOT ethical.  It is NOT moral.  It is WRONG.  If you can't keep your hand out of the cookie jar, get out of the kitchen.

That's your point of view and it is certainly a valid POV, but not absolute.  Other cultures and/or subcultures may find this ethical, acceptable and even good.

Dating students can be common in China but for us it's highly inappropriate to do. Teachers are teachers and true teachers if by any chance , get any kind of signal from a student, will definately avoid to get into this activity. This can cause damage to the foreigners reputation, I mean all the foreigners plus it will greatly damage the fine line between being a teacher-student relationship. I'd say no-no!

I have also pretty much been told that there is no problem with dating students here, by a fair few different people, both foreign and chinese.

I have seen both Chinese & foreign teachers doing it, but never heard any suggestion of "no problem".

In fact, I've seen the reverse. Schools with a policy that students were not allowed in teachers' apartment building, not effectively enforced but TIC. Or a university official attempting to give a foreign teacher a hard time about having coffee with a pretty student one-on-one in a campus restaurant. Naturally and rightly, the teacher told him off.

I think some Chinese men see Western guys as a threat, much like the WW II British saying that there were three problems with Americans -- overpaid, oversexed and over here. If you give these guys ammo by doing students, they'll make as large a stink as possible.

I think that were I to do that there would be few ramifications...except that I dont believe I could go through with it. The part of my brain that has been trained to think that it is unethical kicks in every time. It just feels like a bad idea to me.

Your instincts are good.

Schools with a policy that students were not allowed in teachers' apartment building, not effectively enforced but TIC

ummmm ........ what is TIC?

I checked out Wikipedia and it said:

A tic is a sudden, repetitive, nonrhythmic, stereotyped motor movement or vocalization involving discrete muscle groups.

which kind of made sense in the context of this topic, except for the nonrhythmic part - but I am sure the author had something else in mind. 


 

The other thing I said in the first post no one really touched on, which is that sometimes one doesn't know where love is going to come from, and a teacher who never intended to date a student might fall in love with one… But I think that would have to be a pretty special case, and not just the dude having a crush on a girl because she's got a great smile and doesn't realize he's a fucking turkey. In my case, I'm a couple decades older than my students so actually do see them as rather young (the freshmen look like kids to me), so there's not much struggle there. But if I was in my early twenties, I might be much more susceptible to getting involved because the students would be in the same ball park in some respects. And that's why I don't think it's generally a good idea to hire teachers who are only a little older than the students.

I thought about this point before too. China is pretty unique in that you do actually have teachers at the college level who quite possible are only a couple years older than the majority of their students, maybe even the same age as some of them if the teacher is a fresh college grad. In the West you might have TAs who are in their late 20s, but that's about as close as it gets (aside from students who started school later in life, but those are generally the exception and not the rule). I generally sort of agree that hiring teachers who are so close in age to their students is not a great idea. It isn't that I think young people can't be good teachers, but I do think that having teachers who are so young sort of blurs the boundaries a bit more than is ideal. I like my students, but they're my students, not my friends, and if they're not friend material they're certainly not dating material (or they weren't, before I got married).