"Laowai"

The Chinese sometimes call each other Laowai. Not a term of endearment.

Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.

Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.

Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.

There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.

Quote from: freegink on May 01, 2014, 08:12:55 PM

Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.

Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.

Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.

There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.

Yes, agreed.

Also what you call your child has no bearing here. Nor what you call your friend nor family members. I can call my friend fuckface and mean it almost affectionally but that doesn't mean I should say it with people I don't know.

If you know some foreigners don't like it and find it offensive why would you continue to use it to refer to them?

For me I don't care what strangers do or say but I find it annoying with people I know because I have a name and they know it.

Wot Stil and BrandX both said.

(Yet) Another story. If it's too long for you, skip to the end:

A few years ago I went over to the FAO office to ask some question of our FAO liaison (let's call her Xiaobao because some of you might know her). Walking into the office, I encountered Xiaobao's assistant working on the computer and an older (around 59 year old) short, fat man lounging on the couch. Some kind of administrator as I was on the administration floor of the school. It was shortly after lunch break.

I walked in, ignoring the guy, who appeared to be trying to schmooze the youngie, and asked the assistant (whose English is weak), "Xiaobao zai ma? ("Is Xiaobao here?")

One of those useless questions you ask in Chinese when you know what the answer is.

"Bu zai!" the assistant answered.

"Shenme shihou hui lai?" (When will she be back?) I asked.

"Yi huar," she replied. (In awhile.)

Suddenly, lounging man sat up, ignoring me, and said to the assistant, "Wah! Neige laowai hui shuo zhongwen!"

The assistant knew I hated hearing that word, "Laowai!" and she cringed.

I turned to the old man, and said, "Ni shi shui?" (Who are you?) And without waiting for an answer, I continued "Wo shi waijiao!" (I'm a foreign teacher!)

Then I looked him directly face-to-face. For some reason I can't explain, but later saved my ass, I decided to address him condescendingly in English "You are stupid!" Then I walked out.

An hour later, back in my apartment, I received a call from Xiaobao. "You came to see me today. Sorry I wasn't there. Did you call my boss "stupid?"

"You're what?" I asked.

"My boss." she said.

To shorten the already long story, it turns out that the old man was in fact the official FAO of the school on paper, and Xiaobao's boss and had been recently transferred to that cadre position from another school just prior to his retirement. All of our FT interactions had always been through Xiaobao. Oh, and despite being the putative head of the school FAO, he spoke no English.

Except he understood the word, "Stupid".

Which I had called him.

"Yes," I told Xiaobao. "I called him stupid. He called me 'laowai'" She knew my feelings on that term.

I continued, "If he really is the school FAO, that's even less excuse for calling me 'laowai'. He knows I am a waijiao then."

"I understand," said Xiaobao, "but it's going to be big trouble for you. I'll try to talk to him."

A half-hour later I got a call from the Dean of the Foreign Languages. Like Xiaobao, the asst. FAO, I got along well with him. We basically had the same conversation. He was more ominous though, "This guy wants you fired immediately."

I think part of it was I got in his face while he was trying to schmooze the young assistant while Xiaobao was out of the office, and he lost some face when the laowai got in his face. Nevertheless, my two good friends in admin-Xiaobao and the Dean-both were very worried about my future.

It was escalated up to the school VP of Academic Affairs to decide. The old man insisting that I be fired immediately. The Dean and Xiaobao vouching for my work-ethic and student ratings, etc. Both agreeing that this FAO was clueless as an FAO and been sent here to this Institute's cadre's last resting place program before retirement.

I insisted to both the Dean and Xiaobao that I be given the chance to state my case to the academic VP who, according to them, had already decided she had to terminate me under the rules of cadre-ship. One elderly cadre will back up another. They both said it would be hard to do, but still I insisted. I liked the school, and done a lot for them, and I liked the students. "Give me a chance to talk to the VP."

"Her English isn't very good," said Xiaobao.

"That's OK, you can translate."

They were able to get me an audience with the VP. Xiaobao was really nervous. When I walked in and met the VP, she was a woman also almost close to retirement. She handed me her card, and told me her Chinese given name was something like "Stalin's Star." No doubt she had been a Red Guard in her academic years.

OK, if you've read this far, here's the payoff on this topic.

We sat down and she accused me of the crime I had committed against a Senior leader of the school. I had called him "Stupid" and he understood it. She understood it.

In the simplest English I could muster (the VP could understand a modicum of English) and with Xiaobao translating the rest (though we hadn't pre-prepared this), I explained thusly:    [cut-and-paste the below for future reference]

_____________________________________________________________________________________________
I am a foreigner and I came to China to help improve students' English. You hired me as a Foreign Expert to do so. In western culture, people don't being called old (Lao). I've been here for a few years already but I'm still considered "way" outsider. So "laowai" is very offensive to most foreigners who have come to China.

I know that many Chnese will simply say, "Oh, laowai isn't meant to be offensive. It's just what we call you." But, in fact if you could be us for just one day and walk around the city and constantly hear, "Laowai!" everywhere we appear, it would be very annoying to you. Yesterday, some old guy, who I now know is supposed to be the official FAO of this school, referred to me as "laowai" when he knows I am a "waijiao". It's very offensive, and mores now that I know he is the official FAO.

The VP responded with, "Well, I have read the reports and everyone says you are a good teacher. But you called an administrator "stupid to his face, so you must apologize."

"I called him stupid. I said it in English," I explained to her.

 Surprisingly, it's one of the few English words he knows. He was offended. To be honest, Ms. VP, in English, the word "Stupid is not as bad as when it's translated into Chinese. I can address my good friends as, "Stupid" and even myself, "Oh, old34, you were so stupid to have done that." None would be very offended because, well, stupid is just stupid. Somewhat benign.

But if you take the raw English word "stupid" and translate it into Chinese in various ways, it is highly offensive. (bendan, erbaiwu, dhabi, shagua, 62 (in hangzhou hua), etc.) That's why he was offended.

Then I paused to let Xiaobao deliver this content.

"In the end," Ms. VP, "it's the LISTENER or receiver of the term who decides if it is negative, not the intent of the speaker."

"I didn't like being called laowai, even though many claim it's not derogatory. He didn't like being called 'stupid' even though most native English speakers would consider it mildly-at best-derogatory. Though when translated to Chinese it's highly derogatory.

Again: It's the LISTENER or RECIEVER who determines if it's offensive. And if you know it is offensive to them, don't use it.

"So what should we do," asked the VP of me. "Everyone else wants you to stay. What can we do?"

"Let me stay," I answered.

"Are you willing to apologize to Mr. Z for what you said?" she asked.

"Of course," I answered, "because I offended him as the listener. But I expect an apology from him for calling me, a waijiao in his department, for calling me "laowai", which offended me as a listener."

I was not fired, my contract was renewed with a bonus, and that was the end of it.

A few years later (after I moved on), Xiaobao is now the head of the FAO at that school.

Quote from: freegink on May 01, 2014, 08:12:55 PM

Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.

Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.

Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.

There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.

That's one of the best explanations I've heard for why laowai is unacceptable. Well done Brandex.

And Old34, that's an awesome story as well. That you got a Chinese cadre to understand that small lesson about offensive language being in the eyes of the beholder is nothing short of a miracle.

There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.

Then what's the "proper" term when referring to black people in China?  In one of my classes, I have six students from Senegal. I actually caught myself just before referring to them as "African American" because the word "black" is ingrained in my mind as offensive. I told the class what had just gone through my thoughts and it set them chattering and laughing as this was news to them. When asked, they said they found no offense in being called "black".

It's a little crazy and completely relative. If you use a word that you don't intend and don't know to be offensive, you can hardly be called rude. As George Carlin said, "No word is offensive in and of itself. It's the context that matters". The U.S. government and media routinely use the word "Browns" when referring to a segment of the population because, I think, Hispanic doesn't completely cover it. I'm sure that one day soon, that word will become pejorative and banned. And God forbid you get caught using the word "Oriental" in the U.S.

On a barely relevant note, a politician once got into extremely hot water by using the word "niggardly". Even after having the etymology of the word explained, many still wanted his head. It's a crazy world.....someone outta sell tickets.   

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjEyMzY2MjUy.html

Alternatively, "Why did I come to China..."

Then what's the "proper" term when referring to black people in China?  In one of my classes, I have six students from Senegal.

Have you asked them?

Quote from: BrandeX on May 06, 2014, 08:37:42 PM

Quote from: freegink on May 01, 2014, 08:12:55 PM

Another example, sometimes you may hear "guilao" (鬼佬). Perhaps you think it's a discrimination. but I don't agree. For example, we call our kids "xiaogui" (小鬼). Again, it's just an expression.

Or as my wife so eloquently put it "That's just what we call you people.

Having not grown up in a civilized culture the nuance of this may be lost on you, but after several years I finally got my family to knock that shit off and stop referring to me by my color. To put this in perspective, in the US in the 1950's people often referred to African-Americans as "negroes" - oh but they didn't mean anything by it! That just what they called you people (them). I doubt anyone would last the day if they went around casually doing their business, referring to people by their color like that anymore.

There is fundamentally no difference between "negro" and "gweilo". You both "didn't mean anything by it", but the terms refer to someone's color and/or how they are not a part of your group. Both are as equally unacceptable.

Yes, agreed.

Also what you call your child has no bearing here. Nor what you call your friend nor family members. I can call my friend fuckface and mean it almost affectionally but that doesn't mean I should say it with people I don't know.

If you know some foreigners don't like it and find it offensive why would you continue to use it to refer to them?

For me I don't care what strangers do or say but I find it annoying with people I know because I have a name and they know it.

Right, I understand what you said. I don't like "guilao" either and I don't use it. But the "lao" in "laowai" has the same meaning as it in "laoshi"(teacher), "laoban"(boss), "laopo"(wife) and doesn't mean old literally, which I have to explain.  I'm sure you don't feel offended when Chinese students call you "laoshi".

Even though I have explained this, I guess you may still feel offended when people call you "laowai". As it sounds like a tag on you. I guess you also feel offended being called "waiguoren"(foreigner).

Then I want to know what you prefer being called when people don't know who you are and where you are from?

I think it's a cultural thing,Freegink.At home we call people by their name when we are introduced.If we don't know their name we don't have to point them out and call them anything! Why do you need to point at someone  in the street and say anything? We are ALL just people! the country we come from is not the important thing- it's who we are ,and how we behave that is important isn't it? Birth is geographical accident.

The "china" of "chinaman" is "China", which all would agree is a country, but "chinaman" remains a contentious expression anyway. The meaning of language is the use to which it is put, not the use to which we say it is put. And "laowai", at least, is used to identify outsiders.

In English language cultures, the difference between "Hey, you're not from around here" and "Hey, he's not from around here" lies in what you're going to do next: interact with or stigmatize. The first sally is already interaction; the second is ripe with suspicion.

"Laowai" is used in the second form. It is used to alienate. To make alien.

Come to think of it, I don't have a problem with "waiguoren". As far as I can tell, that expression is literal. "Laowai", however, feels like a cultural category. There's some nuanced usage going on there, and it's, you guessed it, alienating.

On occasion I've had people I know and like refer to me while talking to others and they've used "laowai" or "women laowai". The others they're talking to are met in their institutional capacity (a nurse at a hospital, for eg). Or for instance, I've heard the foreign affairs officer use "laowai" on the phone when, say, talking to deans of departments about the foreigners that work for them now. I can sort of hear that the term is meant without derogatory import. I can sort of hear that "laowai" just is what I am, the foreigner among them, and it isn't negative.

But... I can count instances of that relatively benign use on one hand. And I've heard "laowai" a great many more times than that.

Right, I understand what you said. I don't like "guilao" either and I don't use it. But the "lao" in "laowai" has the same meaning as it in "laoshi"(teacher), "laoban"(boss), "laopo"(wife) and doesn't mean old literally, which I have to explain.  I'm sure you don't feel offended when Chinese students call you "laoshi".

The 'lao' in 'laowai' doesn't matter because that's the etymology of the word not the actual word and has little bearing on how it's used. The word "laowai" has been used in derogatory way at times. The way words are used can change while their etymology doesn't. "tongzhi", for example has had an additional meaning attached to it over the past couple of decades.

Even though I have explained this, I guess you may still feel offended when people call you "laowai". As it sounds like a tag on you. I guess you also feel offended being called "waiguoren"(foreigner).

You are not explaining anything we don't know. The difference is that China is not a multi-cultural country and so has never had to deal with these issues and it can be difficult to understand. Even in western countries with a history of multiculturalism there are issues about what words are appropriate.

Then I want to know what you prefer being called when people don't know who you are and where you are from?

"waiguoren" is used less often in a derogatory way however it's still exclusionary. It's use overseas shows that it doesn't really mean foreigner, but means a non-chinese looking person. As a description of someone you don't know or the party you are talking with doesn't know, it's fine, however, why use the exclusionary word when you know someones name? Why say "I'm with the foreigner" when you can say "I'm with John" when everybody knows who John is? Emphasizing difference is exclusionary and being exclusionary is unfriendly, insensitive and somewhat impolite.

If "laowai" had never been used in a derogatory way, then there would be no issue (other than the exclusionary one as with "waiguoren"), but it has, and once it has, you can't just decide to put the genie back into the bottle. If you use the word, then you are taking a chance that the foreigner will be offended regardless of your intent.

Right. I get it, Stil. I guess most of Chinese people don't think "laowai" is a derogatory word.  I think you know how Chinese people think of westerners as you have been in China for a long time. Most of them still think people from western countries are superior.  But you guys feel it's derogatory. That's fair enough.

It's hard to think of China as being less multi-cultural given the vast number of ethnicities, languages, religions etc.  Maybe the difference is that it's more segmented; not a melting pot.  And being so group oriented, you are either in or out with little in between.