Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Mimi on May 19, 2007, 07:38:57 PM
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Has anyone seen it? A really startling documentary.
The administrators of the camp actually stated that they hoped these children would sacrifice themselves in the fashion of children from Palestine and Pakistan, since that really shows devotion to "God"
Most importantly, they are teaching these children at a very young age to remain completely inflexible on the issues of abortion and gay marriage. Of course, there is no talk of murder and rape, as those issues don't get republicans elected.
It is also talks about global warming and environmental issues as being inconsequential, as they believe their God gave us this earth to use only for our benefit and we can't possibly destroy it before the apocalypse.
To those of you from America who wish to return, what do you think? Do you think this is okay, do you want your children to go to school with children who attend such camps? Do you think there is a line between raising your children with free will and indoctrinating them with hatespeech, violence, and ignorance?
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This sounds like more than just a fundamentalist-Christian organisation. It sounds more like an Aryan Nation group "doing their thing" to "protect" (white) people from all the "bad influences" that abound in the USA today....blacks, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Liberals.......etc.
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aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa
have a look at this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CgvgjfwyPs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CgvgjfwyPs)
There are other samples there too.
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And here's what Crippler has to say about it......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F8z80pD5JE&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F8z80pD5JE&NR=1)
ahahahahah ahahahahah ahahahahah
I'm not laughing at the message...just the resemblance!
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Where do these people come from? I know we got them in Australia too, but how do they get to be so fucking gullible!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru7Ds2FZpVk&mode=related&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru7Ds2FZpVk&mode=related&search=)
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Yeah, I saw it a while back. It's Christian fundamentalism at its worst. I feel sorry for the children and hopefully when they mature, they will start thinking for themselves. I choose to believe that this kind of thinking is in the very small minority, but even if it is small, it seems to have a loud voice in American politics, as evidenced in the current president and his beliefs and policies. As an American, I believe that both the extreme right and the extreme left have far too much political influence. The vast middle, the rational thinking Americans, do not have a voice in the system.
But back to the documentary, Jesus Camp may seem shocking to some, but organizations like it are all over America. Free speach you know? Their only real affect is on the unfortunate brainwashed children that are sent there by their parents. The film itself can only hurt their cause. Beliefs like theirs are best kept secret.
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Unfortunately I think it is just the tip of the iceberg. Home schooled students are also on the far right. They are being sent to special Universities to be trained for Government work and political aids. Heinlein will be right if things keep the same. asasasasas
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We have far fewer of the christian loons in the UK, barring the odd nutter standing in high streets ranting. Phew!
Unfortunately, we have far too many islamonut loons instead. asasasasas
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Did you guys get the news over there that Jerry Falwell died? In the standard 15 second grab on the news there was much play of his blaming feminists, gays etc for 9/11 and for alleging that the purple sponge was gay. bibibibibi
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Jerry Faldwell died? I get all those spokespeople for the Christian right mixed up, but I seem to recall him warning that Jesus's return was imminent, and that it was gonna happen in our lifetime. I guess he didn't mean his own lifetime.
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That education system is in place in many areas. But, you would have to make it compulsory to attend the school thus taking away freedom of choice.
I am afraid of fundamentalism of any kind be it religious or political or ... As for all of us here, we are obviously able to make choices with open eyes or else we wouldn't be here. Think of all the others who have trouble leaving their hometown, even to travel to another such town in a neighbouring state or province - fear of otherness.
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Newbs - many fundamentalists take their children out of school and teach them at home, which is legal. Honestly, considering the kind of backwards education I recieved in a small town which in no way prepared me for university (because very real and important topics weren't "appropriate"), I support homeschooling. But... it is very controversial. Maybe the world has outgrown Christianity, maybe Christianity has outgrown the world, but they definitely don't seem to fit together.
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Maybe the world has outgrown Christianity, maybe Christianity has outgrown the world, but they definitely don't seem to fit together.
Which I kinda gathered was the whole idea...
Perhaps my favorite film is Being There...the Peter Sellars classic. My interpretation of the film is that OK, various religions tell us to reject the world and have total faith. What would it be like if such a guy actually showed up? aoaoaoaoao
I support the right to homeschool, but I think some standards should be imposed. I don't think many parents are qualified to teach. I see some appeal in homeschooling...but I also think, for better or worse, it can be a real damper to developing social skills.
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I agree. I have given some thought to home schooling and the lack of social development has been my biggest concern. I think home schooling is OK so long as the teachers are capable(sadly a lot of public school teachers in the West are not) and there is another social outlet. Soccer...baseball...chess club...dancing...anything that lets you interact with others your own age.
As far as religion goes...I am a devout atheist. However I intend to educate my son about all religious faiths and their beliefs. Religion is an important part of world culture. If he chooses to embrace one...so be it. I won't be real happy about it but I feel I should give him the choice to decide what to believe rather than cramming my beliefs down his throat. This is a concept these "Jesus Camp" types don't seem to understand.Frankly I believed in a second coming I'd bet Jesus would sue these guys for using his name.
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Home schooling - I have seen it work a number of ways. Some excel and go on to hit impressive scores at universities. Many are just normal kids living with not so normal parents who want something different for their kids, usually escape from a system that they found to be painful (socially) as a youth. Some want to take their children out of the heathen public school system as it encourages too much "think for yourself" rather than follow the righeous path. Others want to take their children out of the line of fire in terms of bullying. Some good reasons, some very pathetic reasons.
However, homeschooling is more about programming the youth to see it "my way" (parents' fundamentalist belief system). The learning is more "rote" than not. The teaching is for the most part very weak if present at all. Let's face it - kids home with mom doing school work, housework, church work - rather than playing and learning with other kids. The public school systems all suck in various creative ways (yes, I am a retired school administrator) but they still are the best we have yet devised as a human species that is VERY messy and for the most part, irrational in a logical sort of way.
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I can see both the pros and cons for homeschooling. My best friend and her brother were both homeschooled. This was due to religious reasons. And while they are both lovely people, their social skills were horribly underdeveloped. They had no friends outside their family circle and were starved of experiences in the 'outside world'. I knew them for a year before a descent conversation was produced. They just didn't have the skills to interact with strangers.
I'm sure this isn't the case with all homeschooled children, but these are the only 2 homeschooled people I know.
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Damn straight he'd be learning about the Trojan War.Homer is a great read...
What I mean is this....I do not intend to impose my way of thinking on him. His way of thinking should be of his choosing. There will come a time when he has questions of a "spiritual" nature. When that time comes I will not answer them casually. I will make sure he knows many people believe different things...and his old man thinks it's all a load of crap. But just because I feel that way doesn't mean he isn't free to form his opinions.
Issues such as racism, sexism, nationalism ect are inevitable. I do not intend to shy away from them.
I understand what you're saying but you misunderstand.I was not talking about giving religious education as part of a formal home schooling program but as a parent who answers their childs questions in a way that shows respect for their intelligence and opinions.
Home schooling is something I have only been considering because we will may well be living abroad when he is school age and Chinese/Mexican/Japanese/Chilean/Ghannan or whatever schools are not the places where I want my son to by educated.
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I, too, tried not to impose my way of thinking on my daughter. I happen not to believe in a particular religion but made sure she was exposed to many different beliefs. A belief in a god is a strong part of many of our cultures...I think children need to have a basic understanding of this.
As for sexism and racism, yep, I didn't hide that from her either. It exists, it's out there...it'll be part of her future.
And hte Greek myths, well she loved 'em when she was a wee one...ploughed her way through the Odyssey when she was only about seven, and 'cos she's a Kiwi kid she had to study them anyway at school.
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Jerry Falwell died, huh? For all the dumb-assed things he said, I could still listen to him until he stated categorically that Jews don't go to heaven- no one does unless they specifically worship Jesus Christ.
I hate this divisiveness. And don't think Christians are the only ones up to this knavery. Sadly, I believe the majority of the folks in this world have a clear definition of US akakakakak and THEM adadadadad , and are taking numbers.
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I would like to know where you guys are finding these documentaries. I love controversial documentaries and can't find any around here. A friend lent me The Last King of Scotland, you need a strong stomach for that one. It hurt to watch it, but I think we all need to.
I also want to see the Lost Boys of Sudan, has anyone seen it?
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http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_can't_be_replicated (http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Evolution_can't_be_replicated)
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It is interesting that you chose to ignore all the other arguments.
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And, as a microbiology major, I would like to hear your theory as to how bacteria could transform into enzymes.
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From a conflict theory point of view religions are simply another system to keep others down, demand conformity as Lotus stated in "behave this way". But you must admit they are doing an excellent job of it. In essence they are changing the power of the government from wealthy capitlists lacking some moral foundation to a group, who albeit has huge issues in my opinion vvvvvvvvvv, with atleast some moral interests not based in money.
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Smart little critters.... give them a couple of weeks. I'm sure they'll manage. ;D
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It is odd though they often neglect to report their failures.oooooooooo
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Scientists do report their failures. There is no such thing as a failed experiment, unless it is flawed in some way. If it just doesn't give a result, that is a result. It just doesn't hit the newspapers, because it isn't exciting. They also report mistakes, or lies or cheating by others, which doesn't happen much elsewhere.
I am sorry to have to report that 'natural selection" is a LAW not a theory. Evolution is a theory only by scientific standards. It stands all the tests thrown at it, too. For example. They said 'dinosaurs changed to birds" and lo and behold, they found the fossils.
Stuff like that.
Changing from one species to another is observed both over time in the fossil record, including man, and geographically with ranges of subspecies where the ones on the end cannot interbreed and are technically different species.
Speciation occurs both in the wild and the laboratory, by crossbreeding and polyploidy and evolution. Wheat is one example of in the wild, Red Cabbage is one from the lab. Don't forget that plants are species too, and under the rules, also supposed to be invariant. However, it happens a LOT with plants.
Several insect species including butterflies and fruit flies have also done this. It is harder with mammals for other reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it more often that suspected in fish, for example, due to the method of breeding.
Another point is that if maggot flies interbreed that are different species, that is another point in evolutions favour, not otherwise. They are still different species, as much as any other. maggots evolving to butterflies is a different family, a bit like man giving offspring to a dog. It would take a lot more time and considerable pressure.
Get over it, kiddies, evolution is a fact. The fact is that things change. The fact is that new species come and old ones go. We don't know all the details yet, but we can say that much is true. Any book that says otherwise is probably an old text, written by a bunch of desert nomads with an out of date education.
One more point. If evolution is a faith as some of the posters maintain, then by the rules of the forum, you aren't allowed to criticize it. If it isn't a faith, then you are allowed to criticize it, but then you concede that it isn't a faith, but instead (at least) based in fact, and thus different from a faith, which isn't.
Thank you, thank you very much.
And one more thing. Disproving evolution does not and cannot thereby prove the alternative. Or vice versa. Each needs it's own evidence. It isn't a choice between two things, but between a plethora of things, including those we haven't thought of yet. So, despite the argument from ignorance "I don't know anything that can prove it so then it is not true and my argument must be true" and the argument from false authority "the bible (or Einstein etc) says this is true, so it must be true no matter what you show me" and other false arguments like "you can't prove me wrong so it must be true" or the opposite "you can't make it happen so it is impossible, and therefore my argument is true", and lots of other false arguments which I also listed for people in Raoul the First, IT STILL MUST BE SHOWN.
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I was simply pointing out the difficulty in finding published articles that don't seem to prove what scientists intended to find. I never made the arguement one way or the other regarding evolution. Personally one way or the other it does not matter to me. I do agree with everything in your post. I simply wish negative finds would be published so others don't spend their time replicating studies that have no significance (social sciences) sorry I'm a "soft" science guy. Yea Uncle Karl! bgbgbgbgbg Which I believe Jesus Camp is all about.
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Ideally, scientists shouldn't care one way or the other what their results show (but they/we are obviously human, therefore....). I read papers all the time containing results that surprise the authors who were expecting otherwise. I DO think that scientists publish what they found, but they do it neutrally, so readers think they wanted this all along. A true scientist would enthuse equally no matter what the result. (What, we found NOTHING! Again! That's amazing, what a revolution this will be when it hits the papers!)
I read things from Sociology to Psychology to hard sciences. I am a Biologist, Biochem mostly, so that is pretty soft for a science. Well, Biochem is fairly hard science, I guess, but most of biology is fairly soft. However, soft science can and should still be rigorous, and there is no excuse for failing to publish just because it didn't show what you wanted. This rigour can be applied to anything, really, even non-science to separate it from non-sense.
I suspect that the funding in most cases would require you to publish regardless, and any contract with a private company that said otherwise is unethical (but no doubt occurs). This is a big issue in scientific research, never more so than now. But they should still publish even if the findings are negative (ie not what they wanted. The universe gives not one solitary damn about mere human opinion, no matter what anthropocentricity may or may not be involved in anything from quantum dynamics to evolutionary pathways to celestial mechanics. - my universe needs it's spark plugs changed, anyway), these are still valid, of course.
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This sounds like more than just a fundamentalist-Christian organisation. It sounds more like an Aryan Nation group "doing their thing" to "protect" (white) people from all the "bad influences" that abound in the USA today....blacks, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Liberals.......etc.
I also form part of a (as I think non-fundamentalist) Christian organisation headquartered in America (although I am NOT American). IMHO, those fundamentalist groups that you describe are not "Christian" at all because they teach and preach hatred, division and discrimination of other people diffetent from our own background. They may make a lot of noise but their real intentions are not decent. I have heard of some cases where such organisations from the US got their feer into some Chinese colleges and universities - I think it is really bad for the students - just another indoctrination! The problem with these fundamentalist groups is that they are very fanatic, intolerant and often hold doctrines that are not streamline with "main Christianity. They very often are also not well educated. Years ago in South Korea, I have seen such groups creating tension with the normally very tolerant Buddhist community over there. By the way, whaz have we come to China for? If Christian or not Christian, our job is NOT to evangelise/missionise in China (apart from the fact that it may be illegal).
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Wow great and big thread with lots to chew on.
I find it interesting that people want to believe in something beyond themselves spiritually. It's one of the enigmas of being human. I think we as humans don't want to recognize that there is in fact nothing controlling our lives. We want to be controlled to a degree because the control eliminates fear of the unknown.
Extremism in most forms is bad. Fundamentalist Christians might becoming more common place as a reaction to the liberal media pushing the envelope further and further regarding sexuality and behavior. I agree fundamentalist movement promote hate and division more than anything. The "you are with us or against us" attitude doesn't fly well with my personal outlook.
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Who was it that said, "God's only excuse is that he does not exist?"
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I believe you just did, or is religion opiate for the masses. I forget I'll pray my memory comes back.
bibibibibi
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Nah. I'm not so brilliant (I wish I could be - but reality proves the contrary). I think - and I may be wrong - but I think it was Stendhal who said it.
Or Popeye.
Either way: I share their opinion.