Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The Love, Marriage and Family Board (ON-TOPIC) => Topic started by: Ben-Dan on November 07, 2010, 08:06:31 PM
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I did a search and turned up nothing specifically about this, though it must have come up. It's something that came up in a discussion over a dinner last night, and so I'm still churning the topic over in my mind. I'd like to share some of my conclusions, though they may not be popular.
- It's pretty much a taboo in the West, for what that's worth
- The FAO at my uni criticized a Chinese teacher for dating a student, for what THAT'S worth. Interestingly, said Chinese teacher told me that if I were to date a student it would be a BIG problem. In fact he was talking about why it was OK that another Chinese teacher was also dating a student. In my case, I'm a Lao Wai, and older, so it's worse. Such was his expressed opinion (though he's the one dating a student and not me)
- Despite students being in their late teens to early twenties, IMO they usually remind me of kids more than they do adults.
- Students, being in school are not on the same level as teachers in terms of knowledge and power in the world (they don't have real jobs, haven't even finished school). By this I mean, do they have any idea what they are really getting into, and with whom? I can't imagine that a student would really appreciate who I am, or fathom what being with me would really be like or what impact it would have on her life in the long run. [Note that I've been propositioned by students several times, though I think now the word is out of my policy of not dating students, so they've stopped.]
- Dating students could 'cause jealousy and resentment among other students.
- If the teacher doesn't actually up and marry the student, her reputation will probably be tarnished… The teacher moves on, but the student remains with the reputation in the same city…
- Students should be able to trust a teacher and know he isn't interested in them because of her gender…
- Teachers should look at students as students, and not as potential conquests.
- Student in question may expect a better grade with less work, and if it's given other students will be suspicious.
- Fishing is actually more fun and challenging than shooting fish in a barrel.
- Finally, if one isn't a complete loser, one could find a female companion outside the university and leave the students alone! C'mon.
Just thought I'd get my opinion out there. Sort of an "ethics" conclusion. That said, I know that things happen outside of one's intention or control, and a well-intentioned teacher, finding himself surrounded by adoring young ladies, might be a little weak (assuming he isn't preying on them with intent) and succumb to temptation. He might just legitimately fall in love. Who am I to judge in that case. Could happen to me but I hope not.
So, in short, I think it's a stupid thing to do, especially when, unless the uni is on a small Island or space station, one can find a suitable lady outside of the campus. Needless to say if the girl is in High School it's absolutely out of the question. Also note the same applies for female teachers and male students.
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It is a topic that has come up in various shapes and forms but I, too, am not sure if any thread is dedicated to it.
Ben-Dan has pretty well covered the reasons why dating a student is not a good idea. I guess any one of them should be enough to get it crossed off a check list of 'Things I Must Do In China.'
For all that it does happen - and it often works out to be a meaningful relationship no different to those outside the gates.
It is not just an issue for those of us in China. In the last month a university in New Zealand has published a ban on Staff-Student relationships that has triggered a debate.
The FAO at my uni criticized a Chinese teacher for dating a student, for what THAT'S worth.
The FAO's comment is just another example of the difference between theory and practice in China. Some years ago, when dealing with outfall from the relationship of a foreign teacher with a student, I asked a group of female Chinese teachers for advice.
It went something like ... 'Get real. Who do you think Chinese teachers marry? 8 out of 10 marry former students.'
I assume that those relationships did not start at a reunion dinner.
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Guess it means they were boning while the girls were still their students.
Your guess is as good as mine! bfbfbfbfbf
The teaching profession does have its hazards. On this topic I sometimes suggested that they should pay us 'danger money', the same as paid to those working with hazardous goods.
China has had to deal with the issue the same as any other country. There was the time at a Zhanjiang middle school (just after I left town) when a Chinese teacher had his head cut off and left on his desk - one of the girls in his class was pregnant and an uncle called in to discuss the matter.
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I think that in any country, it should be taboo to date ANY students at the place you work at. Obviously high schools would definately be a no-no, but I understand there are many young English teachers probably not much older than their students at university level. But because of resentment and other reasons BenDan mentions, it should be off-limits. I had a similar conversation in class last week with students when I presented the dilemma of broken relationships between boss/ worker in the same company. They couldn't believe that in the West now often companies which to be notified if there are any relationships within the company.
And yes, relationships or even sexual harrassment are so common in schools here, it's crazy! One of my old students, now in grade 3 at uni, has been chased and harrassed by her old high school teacher (married) whenever she goes home, to the point that she refuses to on the holidays. She has no idea what to do, it's a small town in Xinjiang! She contacted me for advice about it a few months ago, but I had no idea given the cultural differences here.
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.....unless the student is really hot
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You should never date someone you have power over.
Dating students, I believe is totally wrong, for many reasons.
A teacher has power over a student. Even if you don't teach the student, you could teach the student at a later time. Therefore, power to abuse exists.
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You should never date someone you have power over.
Well then my g/f should be roundly chastized since she is far more powerful than I am.
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You should never date someone you have power over.
Dating students, I believe is totally wrong, for many reasons.
A teacher has power over a student. Even if you don't teach the student, you could teach the student at a later time. Therefore, power to abuse exists.
I agree. Actually, when I wrote up the code of conduct for the teachers at the school I used to run, I included a part about not dating students because I really did not want to have to deal with the problems that student/teacher relationships can create. I think it is a bad idea on a lot of levels but what DS said above is really the biggest reason for me.
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I agree with all above who said it's a bad idea. Nice list Ben-Dan.
This past week one of my students stayed after class to ask me a question. Her high school classmate is at another uni and has a new FT. The new FT has been inviting students over to his apartment, in groups, to watch TV, practice English, cook, etc. OK so far. Now the FT has given my student's friend a key to his apartment and has invited her to come over by herself. He can get her accepted to a uni in the USA, help her improve her English and goodness knows what else he's promised. The friend is uncomfortable and asked my student to ask me if this is done in Western countries. Both young ladies sense something is very wrong with this scenario.
I applauded their sense of what's right and wrong and hope I made a strong enough point that my student's friend should run, run, run.
Meanwhile, to the unknown new FT asasasasas tttttttttt bcbcbcbcbc bababababa
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llllllllll What gives foreigners the right to think common sense and decency goes out the window the moment they arrive in another country? Dare I say it, it's usually the MALE foreign teachers that are the most trouble! Sorry, but it's true. And you wonder why so many ads say 'female preferred'?
I don't know what it is with male obsession with intimacy...I'm sure most only come to China to find a wife!
*dodging various fruit being thrown*
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No teacher, in any school/university should ever date a student, IMHO. It is just wrong. If I had a daughter who came home from her Freshmen year and let it slip that she had been dating her teacher, that man would find himself on the business end of a rather large Locahaber axe. There are millions of single, beautiful women to choose from, no teacher ever need trawl the classroom for dates...it is immoral, unethical and nasty. As has been said earlier in this thread, teachers should see students as students, no matter what the hotness factor is of said students.
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Pfft. Ask around. It happens in middle school too.
It's one big Discovery channel, this country.
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...it is immoral, unethical and nasty.
Isn't that what China is all about? I've never witness more openly unethical, (by Western definitions), behaviour in my life. And I worked in big-business for 30 years. I have it on pretty good authority that Chinese professors sleep with their femail grad students quite routinely. When in Rome...
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The behaviour of a group does not mean one should automatically join that group. Yes, I too have heard about professors here sleeping with students. No, that is not what China is all about. I have also heard of and encountered local and laowai teachers who seemed more preoccupied with emulating the behaviour of some 18th Century debauched libertine, shilly-shallying their work and being, in every way, unprofessional instead of acting like dedicated educators. I disagree with the trite cliche of "when in Rome"...Teachers who date students should not be teachers, whether they are teachers in China, the West, on Mars, anywhere, that is my unwavering opinion.
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Agreed ETR. I think "when in Rome" is a pretty flimsy excuse, and if we wanted to do things that way well then why don't we accept bribes to change students' grades while we're at it? Or use corporal punishment and humiliation in the classroom? Or encourage our students to cheat on their exams? Chinese schools are definitely not bastions of ethical behavior, but none of us have to stoop to their levels either.
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llllllllll What gives foreigners the right to think common sense and decency goes out the window the moment they arrive in another country? Dare I say it, it's usually the MALE foreign teachers that are the most trouble! Sorry, but it's true. And you wonder why so many ads say 'female preferred'?
I don't know what it is with male obsession with intimacy...I'm sure most only come to China to find a wife!
*dodging various fruit being thrown*
I prefer to make a different comparison rather than by gender.
Of the dozen or so males I have known here who dated students and the 4 females (2 straight, 2 gay) who dated students, none of them had been teachers before they came to China. I haven't met (so far that I know of) any foreigners, male or female, who were teachers before they came to China and who have dated students here.
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The behaviour of a group does not mean one should automatically join that group. ...Teachers who date students should not be teachers, whether they are teachers in China, the West, on Mars, anywhere, that is my unwavering opinion.
I agree with the points expressed and would not date a student. However, it's worth looking at the issue from other points of view. If this practice is acceptable in China, (and I'm not saying it is), then you can legitimately argue that it is not unethical. Just try obeying the Western rules-of-the-road while driving here some time and see where it gets you. Or just crossing the street for that matter.
Like I said, I agree with the overall point, but I do find it interesting that some from the West think that their moral point of view is the only one acceptable.
If the head of your school were to ask you to increase a student's grade as a personal favor to him, would you do so? Would you quit before relenting to the request?
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I'm sure this one has been talked about on here before...
Much like everyone else said, there is definitely an ethical side that should be taken into account: male or female, you should never ever date someone you're in a position of power over.
Now, teacher-student relationship, big no no in most people's books but.. but... (getting ready to dodge rotten eggs) what if it's not your student? What if it just happens to be a student in the same establishment but not one that falls under your direct tutelage? Where's the harm in that as long as the usual disclaimers about consenting adults/age are taken into account?
Another case that comes to mind is Ex students? once a person is no longer in your care, does that make them fair game? does it make it OK to date them? One could argue that the teacher-student relationship never dies out.
also, it's not fair to put it squarely as a Male Teacher- Female Student kinda situation. I have met some Female teachers with predator instincts that rival those of the sleaziest males i know...
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You may have answered your own question by saying you should never date someone over which you have a position of power. In China don't all teachers have a position of power compared to students? That's why I think the rule breaks down a little on the fringes.
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I agree with the points expressed and would not date a student. However, it's worth looking at the issue from other points of view. If this practice is acceptable in China, (and I'm not saying it is), then you can legitimately argue that it is not unethical. Just try obeying the Western rules-of-the-road while driving here some time and see where it gets you. Or just crossing the street for that matter.
If the head of your school were to ask you to increase a student's grade as a personal favor to him, would you do so? Would you quit before relenting to the request?
I humbly disagree. I don't think it has ever been "acceptable" in China to have intimate relationships with students, much like it has never been "acceptable" for officials to receive bribes in the form of money or gifts, however, both are practices found from one end of the Middle Kingdom to the other. When it comes to Teacher-Student relationships, much like corruption, China tends to take a Colonel Schultz approach to the matter.
As for your question: No, I would not. My school already tried something like that with me. A student coming back from a stay in the US had to pass my course and the school wanted me to just give her a grade. I said no. Told them that if the student wanted to pass the course, she could find some way of doing it. She could have contacted me whilst in America, she did not. I told them that asking me to blithely pass the student was an insult to me and the students who had worked damn hard to pass the course.
If the student is not your student, then I would say the rule still applies. When you are employed as a teacher at a school, all the students are your students. You, as a teacher, represent the Adults, the responsible ones, the people that students can come to for help and guidance. hus one should not have other things in mind when interacting with students. . Consentual adults disclaimer....There are very few students here I would hazard to label as "adults".
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Consentual adults disclaimer....There are very few students here I would hazard to label as "adults".
that's a whole different discussion.
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I can offer two points of view on the matter:
When I was in college I dated a teacher at my same university. I was an bit older than the other students, and a junior. He was teaching freshman, and also taught a class I'd never take. We were pretty equal when it comes to maturity levels, and thought now I don't know what I saw in him, at the time it was your normal, healthy, albeit short-lived romance.
I feel that as FT's we have an obligation, not just to our students and our own reputations, but to the reputations of other FT's as well. We have to think, "How will this affect these Chinese people's views of Americans, Canadians, Brits, Aussies, etc?" I think that dating a student leaves a bad impression in school's minds (this means foreigners, and not other Chinese teachers), and that's just not fair to the teacher that will come after you.
And, I just have to admit there's something distasteful to me about the whole idea. I love my students, but they're really little kids in a lot of ways. Younger women are already at a disadvantage when dating older men, but this maturity divide could be insurmountable! Also, the fact of the matter is that if you're willing to abuse the teacher/student relationship, I can't imagine you're too great of a person anyway, and that just leads to a more twisted relationship.
As for dating college kids who aren't your students, someone said that as a teacher ALL students are your students. And I'm inclined to agree with them.
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This whole issue to me seems like a gray area, only becuase so many forigners have gone and thrown a big bucket of water over what should be a pretty clear canvas (this is the extended metaphor I will be running with)
In one instance, I have a friend here, who is dating his ex student. She is still a student of the establishment, but no longer under his direct influence. They are very happy and I see little problem with it, however when I casually brought up the point that dating a student is unethical, somebody else was quick to laugh and say I really put my foot in my mouth there.
I have also pretty much been told that there is no problem with dating students here, by a fair few different people, both foreign and chinese.
There is also that stance that 'alls fair in love and war' which seems to be used to cover a whole manner of sins here.
After giving it some serious thought, I'm not sure where I stand on the matter. My age has a small bit of impact. I am the youngest ft in Nanchang I think, and am only 2 years older than my students (minus my fresher class) One of which is particularly hot, and I think would put out if I was to approach the subject.
I think that were I to do that there would be few ramifications...except that I dont believe I could go through with it. The part of my brain that has been trained to think that it is unethical kicks in every time. It just feels like a bad idea to me.
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I'm not in PRC. I teach students in our Dept of Corrections, whose ages currently range from 15 to 41. I have had a student who was 60. But would I ever cross the ethical line about dating students even were I to be unmarried? NO. Emphatically and unequivocally, NO!!
Dating a student is NOT ethical. It is NOT moral. It is WRONG. If you can't keep your hand out of the cookie jar, get out of the kitchen.
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If the head of your school were to ask you to increase a student's grade as a personal favor to him, would you do so? Would you quit before relenting to the request?
I humbly disagree. I don't think it has ever been "acceptable" in China to have intimate relationships with students, much like it has never been "acceptable" for officials to receive bribes in the form of money or gifts...
A student coming back from a stay in the US had to pass my course and the school wanted me to just give her a grade.
You, as a teacher, represent the Adults, the responsible ones, ....There are very few students here I would hazard to label as "adults".
We're on the same page, but I disagree here and there. Your "grade enhancement" example is much more extreme than what I asked and what I have found to be common practice here. I make no judgment on this as the people I see complying with requests to increase grades are good, kind, ethical people. This is a culture difference and I don't find what they do repugnant.
I don't date students, but that's because I think it would greatly complicate, sidetrack and hinder the learning process, (that's why I'm here); not because I represent the adults. I represent myself. If a student wants to infer that all teachers are like me, they're welcome to make that mistake and learn differently later.
I'm not too sure about the acceptability of professors sleeping with their graduate students. I keep hearing that it's pretty common. As for bribes, it is certainly acceptable in many parts of the world and I have first-hand knowledge of it happening in China with the claim that it is common, but I can't be sure about that.
Assuming these things are acceptable, however, doesn't it make them ethical?
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Dating a student is NOT ethical. It is NOT moral. It is WRONG. If you can't keep your hand out of the cookie jar, get out of the kitchen.
That's your point of view and it is certainly a valid POV, but not absolute. Other cultures and/or subcultures may find this ethical, acceptable and even good.
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Dating students can be common in China but for us it's highly inappropriate to do. Teachers are teachers and true teachers if by any chance , get any kind of signal from a student, will definately avoid to get into this activity. This can cause damage to the foreigners reputation, I mean all the foreigners plus it will greatly damage the fine line between being a teacher-student relationship. I'd say no-no!
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I have also pretty much been told that there is no problem with dating students here, by a fair few different people, both foreign and chinese.
I have seen both Chinese & foreign teachers doing it, but never heard any suggestion of "no problem".
In fact, I've seen the reverse. Schools with a policy that students were not allowed in teachers' apartment building, not effectively enforced but TIC. Or a university official attempting to give a foreign teacher a hard time about having coffee with a pretty student one-on-one in a campus restaurant. Naturally and rightly, the teacher told him off.
I think some Chinese men see Western guys as a threat, much like the WW II British saying that there were three problems with Americans -- overpaid, oversexed and over here. If you give these guys ammo by doing students, they'll make as large a stink as possible.
I think that were I to do that there would be few ramifications...except that I dont believe I could go through with it. The part of my brain that has been trained to think that it is unethical kicks in every time. It just feels like a bad idea to me.
Your instincts are good.
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Schools with a policy that students were not allowed in teachers' apartment building, not effectively enforced but TIC
ummmm ........ what is TIC?
I checked out Wikipedia and it said:
A tic is a sudden, repetitive, nonrhythmic, stereotyped motor movement or vocalization involving discrete muscle groups.
which kind of made sense in the context of this topic, except for the nonrhythmic part - but I am sure the author had something else in mind.
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The other thing I said in the first post no one really touched on, which is that sometimes one doesn't know where love is going to come from, and a teacher who never intended to date a student might fall in love with one… But I think that would have to be a pretty special case, and not just the dude having a crush on a girl because she's got a great smile and doesn't realize he's a fucking turkey. In my case, I'm a couple decades older than my students so actually do see them as rather young (the freshmen look like kids to me), so there's not much struggle there. But if I was in my early twenties, I might be much more susceptible to getting involved because the students would be in the same ball park in some respects. And that's why I don't think it's generally a good idea to hire teachers who are only a little older than the students.
I thought about this point before too. China is pretty unique in that you do actually have teachers at the college level who quite possible are only a couple years older than the majority of their students, maybe even the same age as some of them if the teacher is a fresh college grad. In the West you might have TAs who are in their late 20s, but that's about as close as it gets (aside from students who started school later in life, but those are generally the exception and not the rule). I generally sort of agree that hiring teachers who are so close in age to their students is not a great idea. It isn't that I think young people can't be good teachers, but I do think that having teachers who are so young sort of blurs the boundaries a bit more than is ideal. I like my students, but they're my students, not my friends, and if they're not friend material they're certainly not dating material (or they weren't, before I got married).
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well as all of the letters are capitalised, presumably it's an acronym?
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TIC - This is China
TIFC - This is Fucking China
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TIC - This is China
TIFC - This is Fucking China
IC!!!! Thanks Stil.
The Saloon is starting to read like the China Daily - acronyms for bloody everything.
Their latest effort is HPC - of course you all know that stands for High Performance Computer.
What was the topic again?
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Male Chinese teachers are the worst offenders when it comes to dating younger female students. Foreign teachers are "mostly harmless" by comparison.
That anyone would need to be told it's not OK to date their students (or even students from the same iniversity) is a little mystifing. However, I have dated students from other universities, and for the most part dating students sucks. In addition to the fact that there is a huge gap in terms of maturity and experience, they are often slaves to homework, class projects and dorm schedules. In addition, they go back to their hometowns just about any time they have a free moment.
Things actually worked out pretty well with one Tsinghus student I dated for several months. Sadly, she graduated and go a job in Shenzhen.This is the other problem.After the student life ends, there is no future.
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My general rules for student teacher dating (in or out of China without respect to nationality or gender of anyone involved, but assuming all parties are of legal age) would be:
1. If there's a grade involved and the student is enrolled or is planning to enroll in that teacher's class, then no. A person who controls a grade has power over a person being graded. If there's some true mutual attraction, then let it wait until later. If it's true love, it can wait until after graduation (see #3). If it's only hormones, both parties likely just saved themselves some awkward moments.
2. A teacher and a student in another department who will not ever take a class from that teacher (grades still involved). - Possible, but highly risky. Other students could presume that dating any instructor gives some form of preferential treatment. May be against school policy (official or unofficial). If significant age/maturity gap (in favor of teacher), may easily result in student's relatives approaching teacher from behind with sharp objects and an intent to cause (possibly justified) bodily harm.
3. Teacher and former student (graduated). May raise some eyebrows. People will wonder exactly when the dating began. Could be used against the teacher during evaluations. If the teacher does this with multiple former students, the likelihood of this increases. Depending on who the former student is connected with, a bad breakup could have more fallout than expected. Then again, if it's really true love, what's a few slings and arrows?
4. Adult Education (no grades involved). Somewhat risky. May be against policy (official or unofficial). May result in resentment of other students. In the event of an unpleasant breakup, could cause some fallout for teacher's job (then again, dating a student's relatives in a case like this could also have fallout if there's a bad breakup, but no one ever said you couldn't date an adult's siblings, aunts/uncles, etc., but the fallout from a failed relationship can be similar to a failed relationship with the student - in a small town, dating any local person could have this effect). Assuming there is no policy against it, may be approached, but with caution. Keep in mind that the student's reputation may be tarnished if the relationship fails (in some cases, the teacher's reputation may also be tarnished - depends on the circumstances). If you chose to swim in these waters, do so with your eyes open and at your own risk.
5. High school. Even if the student is 18+ years old and not in your class, a very bad idea. kkkkkkkkkk
6. Dog obedience school. Illegal in most countries. ahahahahah
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6. Dog obedience school. Illegal in most countries. th_ah
I am not sure if it is illegal in Australia uuuuuuuuuu, but an NRL player found out that any such relationship does have its downside
http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8121316
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There are some basic standards of taste and decency that pretty much apply everywhere. These are things like "Don't Ever Date Children..........unless they're really hot"...
Beyond that, I believe it's unethical to date any student where you have or could potentially have some form of influence over that student's life, such as grades.
I think this eliminates most school situations up through and including college.
But a private center, where the students are at least in their twenties and there are no grades, where the only measure of a student's progress is whether or not they continue to make more tuition payemnts?
What the hell...go for it, if you can! bfbfbfbfbf afafafafaf
C'mon...these places ain't exactly Cambridge. They ain't even Tulsa School of Welding. Hell, some of the students are only there to date foreigners in the first place. The classic Western notions of Pedagogy are at best quaintly amusing in such places.
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"...much like the WW II British saying that there were three problems with Americans -- overpaid, oversexed and over here."
And the three problems with the British? Underpaid, undersexed and under Ike.
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" In some cultures people (such as virgins) were sacrificed. I think most people now would recognize that killing an innocent person is unethical irrespective of the culture that practices human sacrifice."
The old assumption of universality rears its presumptuous head. My ethics are THE ethics. Do you think these sacrifices were done for fun? Do you suppose they woke up one day and realized the error of their ways? Pfffft!
There's a pygmy tribe in Borneo that celebrates a sacremental ritual whereby a young couple, while in the act of making love, are killed, burned and eaten. As the late master of mythology, Joseph Campbell said about this ritual..."It doesn't get any better than that".
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Even if we're arguing cultural relativity, I think it is a bit of a jump to say that teachers dating students is acceptable and ethical in China. Does it happen, maybe even often? Sure. But it certainly isn't condoned by school authorities, who actually frown upon students dating, period. It was only a year or two ago that universities in China changed their rules to allow students to get married. I don't think you'll find any school administrators or parents of college students who would be particularly happy to find the faculty bonking the students. Probably the only people who would tell you this is acceptable are the teachers who are doing it.
This is sort of like the thread about the mistress. These situations may be somewhat common in China (and elsewhere), but that doesn't mean they're ideal or even acceptable. Not condoning teacher student relationships or extramarital affairs isn't some form of cultural imperialism by prudish Western folk, these things are fairly taboo among regular old people in China too.
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BD ~ we were talking about activities that were perfectly acceptable by one culture and their particpants buy abhored by another and how some members of the latter culture condemn the former based on their own set of ethics. Pol Pot's mass-murder and the Inquisition were hardly acceptable in the eyes of those persecuted. Genocide is not the same as rituals where the participants die willingly.
That crazy Mayan game where a rubber ball is moved upfield and thrown threw a hole resulted in the sacrifice of the winner, not the loser. Do you think they "thew" games to save their lives? Do you consider that ritual unethical? An no, Campbell was not being sarcastic with his remark. He was appreciative of the power of the ritual in question.
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So, six boys raping a girl, then the last boy and the girl together are killed together, then roasted and eaten
On the scale of things, as presented in the last few posts, it looks like a foreign teacher dating a student hardly rates as a problem.
...... with apologies for referring to the topic bjbjbjbjbj
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9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape
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Gentlemen, I think this thread has gone way off topic. bibibibibi
I think the ethics part belongs in the Wrestling Pit where you can argue at will. bjbjbjbjbj
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9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape
:wtf:
I think someone is pushing the idea that it is only 5 out of 6 get to enjoy it
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I think this thread has gone way off topic. th_bi
I think the ethics part belongs in the Wrestling Pit where you can argue at will.
I agree
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i don't think it's off topic. the discussion is about an ethical question and it went into ethics and cultural relativity
i do apologise for making a sick joke and i do respect the policy on here of not getting into heavy discussions because it is not part of this board's ethos. but at the same time, i do think this is an interesting discussion
my view is that we create our own values and we choose to live by them or not but it is nothing to do with nationality for people like us who have such a wealth of information and opinion to draw on
my girlfriend is an ex-student (i work in a training centre not a school) and i was really against it because i know how that looks to a lot of people and it's against my values. but that is how we met and from my ethics it is as unethical as if i dated another teacher. how do people meet people?
i think in a school or university even aside from 'right and wrong' it's moronic to date your students because you are an authority figure like a policeman or a doctor or something and in a country like china you have to respect their power over you if you are part of their system. if i were a selfish person who got into teaching to meet women then i think a school or uni in china is one of the worst places in the world to go when the world is full of these private language centres, a lot of them in cuontries which don't have brutal corrupt police
and another thing which my brother pointed out to me when i said the daughter thing (imagine it was your daughter dating you....) he said that every man who has a beautiful daughter will hate the idea of some guy nailing her and her loving it, even the best man in the world will see their kids as their kids even when they are adults....
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It is considered unethical and unacceptable IN CHINA to date students however much people may do it anyway.
By whom? Therein lies part of the issue. We (as outsiders) may think so, and we may assume "they" think so (since we do it's only natural right :p )?
What maybe is missing, is a legitimate study (or not, i really haven't checked, and it could have been already done and in Chinese) on real cultural attitudes towards the subject through the region. (It's a big country with varied culture inside it.) This could potentially be an excellent research project for someone's Ph.d. I would expect.
This thread also makes me consider another angle which was wholly dismissed by people posting in this thread as it comes in direct conflict with OUR cultural norms, and that was relations with students younger than University age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Asia#China.2C_People.27s_Republic_of
Indicates the age of consent here is 14. Is it "really"? (Most of us know that Chinese law is never set in stone, or equally applied to all people.) Would there be any legal, or social implications for someone engaging in activities with a student between 14 and 18 years of age (Chinese or foreign national)? If there were, would anyone know, or would it be covered up by related family members or the authorities if discovered? Would the involved parties (perhaps particularly if all Chinese) just say "so what" and not want to discuss it if it became public?
There is a lot of questions raised when we consider the 2 factors together. Is it ok/ethical/acceptable to date/have relations with students? If not, even for Chinese teachers, who are these 14 year old with whom relations are legal? I'll throw out a random assumption that this most likely only would be an issue in rural areas, or amongst those not attending (non-mandatory in China) high school.
Ultimately, people really have only their own personal ethics to rely on in any situation I think. Alongside complying with local laws, and employment regulations, people need to make decisions about their own future.
As for my take, I wouldn't engage in a relationship with a current "adult" student (I wouldn't with anyone ever technically, as I am married, so I'm talking hypothetically), although after the business relations/class was finished if the student had a personal interest I believe it may be acceptable at that point. Were I to be asked while still actively engaged in classes with the person, I would ask for them to wait and think about it until some point in the future when we no longer had a teacher-student relationship. (It should be noted that my POV related towards students in that I don't teach Uni, just private tutoring, and occasionally at adult training centers.)
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I'm sure I'm not really adding anything new, but cultural and situational factors aside, everybody needs to be guided by some kind of internal ethical code.
To be clear, I'm not advocating moral relativism here. I am an atheist, but I still believe that in every situation, actions can be right or wrong; guided by science, logic and rationality. (That sould more utterly funless than I would intend it to!)
I cannot imagine a situation where someone dates a student and doesn't acknowledge within themselves that it is wrong. However given that people are able to rationalise being judgemental about others to the point where it becomes evidence of their own moral superiority, I'm sure that some of you / us can also rationalise it being ok to go out with a student. No dount there are times when it's bad, but not on a crazed baby slaughtering rampage scale.
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Go read Raoul Dukes comments on this thread. He's right.
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foreign teachers have no power in china
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If you are looking to have sex with a Chinese student here are 2 places you can cross off your list:
Chongqing Normal University and Southwest Normal University both located in Chongqing prefecture, became the first two institutions to ban their students from "being an escort, a mistress or having one-night stands" recently, a move that has caused wide debate about what students do and how to police them.
University students getting side jobs as mistresses to the moderately rich and horny is not exactly new news. There's been a long standing tradition of liking a "well-educated" young woman since before the Communist era, and foreign media has been reporting on the resurgance of modern day concubines since 2005, which means that it's probably been happening for at least a decade more. Since at least 2007, some of these university girls have been writing out clearly defined mistress contracts - putting that good learnin' to use!
http://www.peopleforum.cn/viewthread.php?tid=33415&extra=page%3D49
Actually, I do not think they are trying to protect the girls from foreign teachers. Chinese men, especially business men, have a lot more money to give to the girls - the girls are not really interested in teachers who have to work for a living.
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this idea that we don't have any power kind of negates the point of teaching in a way imo
in a marxist sense we are absolutely working class, we generally don't have access to the means of production even if we are perfect employees we can still be fired on a whim by the people with power over us and i think china makes a concious decision to make sure that that situation remains the same. they do appreciate what we have to offer but in terms of rights to participate in society the idea is that we are on the same level as the fillipinos who come and sing in bands or whatever
we do have an influence on our students tho and aside from the whole being completely alien to them in my experience the students do look up to us in some sense not just as teachers but as people who have moved to the other side of the world and enjoyed their society with it's alien alphabet and customs and pretty much everything. and so even tho we don't get real 'citizenship' in china, to say we have no influence on students and their society as a whole is kind of short sighted and it might work on a forum but it wouldn't really work in any other situation justifying preying on naive young girls
there have been lonely old guys preying on naive young girls since before history began and being cynical older guys they always had a reason....
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foreign teachers have no power in china
If you give a grade that goes on a transcript, you have power. It's not great power…but what's that saying about academic spats being so vicious because the stakes are so low?
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If you've never been stalked, you don't know what true power is.
We have "power" automatically by virtue of "position of authority". Power over grades, though not an insubstantial threat to student life, is relatively laughable compared to this, since "position of authority" is psychological.
Some students can take away your sense of authority, and the whole situation in China seems contrived to remove you authority too, but that's just your sense of your authority.
Basically, you da boss, whether you know how to act like one or not.
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I think in a school or university even aside from 'right and wrong' it's moronic to date your students because you are an authority figure like a policeman or a doctor or something and in a country like china you have to respect their power over you if you are part of their system.
Hmmmnnn... who do policemen get to date without breaking ethical guidelines? mmmmmmmmmm
Back on track, I personally see nothing ethically wrong with dating adults students at language mills that don't give grades. There are potential complications that have been covered, so one should consider possible side effects and take at least a small amount of caution before running up the "Please date me, I'm lonely" banner. These really aren't too different from any professional dating a client in a non-power abusive situation. It's not wrong or unethical for a waiter or even the owner of a restaurant to date a customer, but heavily flirting with everyone who walks in the door may cause offense in some circles (or may increase the amount of business - depends on flirting skill and clientele).
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OK, I get it! I get it!
I am not allowed to date a middle-school student. Got it.
But can I boink her Mom?
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I think in a school or university even aside from 'right and wrong' it's moronic to date your students because you are an authority figure like a policeman or a doctor or something and in a country like china you have to respect their power over you if you are part of their system.
Hmmmnnn... who do policemen get to date without breaking ethical guidelines? mmmmmmmmmm
Back on track, I personally see nothing ethically wrong with dating adults students at language mills that don't give grades. There are potential complications that have been covered, so one should consider possible side effects and take at least a small amount of caution before running up the "Please date me, I'm lonely" banner. These really aren't too different from any professional dating a client in a non-power abusive situation. It's not wrong or unethical for a waiter or even the owner of a restaurant to date a customer, but heavily flirting with everyone who walks in the door may cause offense in some circles (or may increase the amount of business - depends on flirting skill and clientele).
See, what you mean is hitting on people is legitimate once you've established an atmosphere. After the waiter and boss have made it clear to customers that this is a pick up zone and all the customers who're skeeved out by the sleaze have taken their custom elsewhere, then it's open season.
Non-power abusive situations don't exist until they've been generated by all parties actually recognising what's going on and FREELY making their choices, both to leave and to stay. If it's just a case that the prevailing moral standards and the lax administration of laws allows opportunity even though the students don't have much choice about where they go to school and who hits on them, then something's amiss, even in an adult training center. Because whenever someone comes to someone else for a service, they're entering into a relationship anyway, and trying to change that relationship into something more personal is, at least, opportunistic.
Whether that opportunism has an immoral flavour is another question, though, and doesn't it start to depend on the nature and character of the people involved, specifically whether they can or cannot negotiate the change in relationship? Students, as a rule, whether 15 or 95, don't sign up for courses with the expectation of also having to negotiate changes in relationship, shirley. They may be excited to negotiate, but that's another story, and one you tell the cops, who by the way are all dating politicians.
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You should never date someone you have power over.
Dating students, I believe is totally wrong, for many reasons.
A teacher has power over a student. Even if you don't teach the student, you could teach the student at a later time. Therefore, power to abuse exists.
It's too bad DS that it's been such a problem at our school. :( Not as bad as it used ti be though.
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OK, I get it! I get it!
I am not allowed to date a middle-school student. Got it.
But can I boink her Mom?
Only if you don't teach her daughter. bjbjbjbjbj
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" In some cultures people (such as virgins) were sacrificed. I think most people now would recognize that killing an innocent person is unethical irrespective of the culture that practices human sacrifice."
The old assumption of universality rears its presumptuous head. My ethics are THE ethics. Do you think these sacrifices were done for fun? Do you suppose they woke up one day and realized the error of their ways? Pfffft!
There's a pygmy tribe in Borneo that celebrates a sacremental ritual whereby a young couple, while in the act of making love, are killed, burned and eaten. As the late master of mythology, Joseph Campbell said about this ritual..."It doesn't get any better than that".
I tried to find out more about that ritual you mentioned above. I found this:
From The Power of Myth Joseph Campbell tells of a New Guinea cannibalism ritual:
"There is a great shed of enormous logs supported by two uprights. A young woman comes in ornamental as a deity, and she is brought to lie down in this place beneath the great roof. The boys, six or so, with the drums going and chanting going, one after another, have their first experience of intercourse with the girl. And when the last boy is with her in full embrace, the supports are withdrawn, the logs drop, and the couple is killed. There is the union of male and female ... as they were in the beginning. ... There is the union of begetting and death. They are both the same thing.
Then the couple is pulled out and roasted and eaten that very evening. The ritual is the repetition of the original act of the killing of a god followed by the coming of food from the dead saviour."
So, six boys raping a girl, then the last boy and the girl together are killed together, then roasted and eaten. And you think Campbell is really saying, "It doesn't get any better than that" to mean, what, that this is the height of human achievement or ritual. He probably means it doesn't get any more outrageous than that, which is the "ironical" thing I was talking about.
He's not saying it's a good thing.
Really, It's just a bunch of brutal crap to entertain the rulers in a society with extraordinary power imbalance (probably the foundation of unethical behavior in any society). Do you really think the girl and the boy and the other 5 boys all wanted to be a part of that? Nobody wants to be killed and roasted and eaten.
Step back and try to project a little. I can see the rulers getting off on it all, and having their stupid justification for it, but the girl at least probably didn't enjoy the process much. Don't you think it fucking hurt to be killed by logs and whatever other crude weapons?
Only a whack-job would approve of such a spectacle.
I think you missed it. The ceremony is NOT rape. The ritual is NOT entertainment. The participants are NOT dragged against their will. This is total commitment to one of the most powerful spiritual experiences ever created. Unless you consider the origins of man and the connecting of humans with their divinity trivial, my guess is that this ceremony conveyed as powerful a message to its participants as is possible.
But on the down side, I understand that some of the meat was under-cooked and chewey.
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Can I boink my TA?
Oops, too late to ask
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It is likely the same for any inappropriate behavior: If someone is inclined to do it, he/she will find a way to justify it.
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Can I boink my TA?
Oops, too late to ask
Oh, you rascally man you! Spoken like a Wanker's Wanker, sir. You do us all proud. agagagagag
Of course, the only way we'll believe this will be to employ photography. CANDID photography. 'Photographs, eh?' he asked him knowingly. Snap snap grin grin wink wink nudge nudge say no more... afafafafaf
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"...the underlying logic is that an outsider cannot fathom the true meaning and significance of the actions in context."
Not at all. We're all human and spirit and can certainly open ourselves to the messages of ritual. Or we can shut them out and live within the confines of our own thinking and training.
Campbell goes on to comment about people, (like yourself), who abhor certain activities of other cultures because the actions don't fit their norms by quoting Shaw's "Caesar And Cleopatra". A British officer is in the room when Cleopatra tells that her husband is also her brother. The officer shows immediate disgust. So Caesar says "Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature."
Why would I think this wouldn't be the case in China?
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So are you seriously saying that teachers dating students is acceptable in Chinese society? Personally I think that's quite a stretch, but if you don't actually think that, then what's the point of the debate about the validity of cultural relativity on this thread?
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For various reasons the foreign affairs office here did once in recent memory make a survey of sorts into how many teachers, Chinese or otherwise, were dating students. In a school of a great many more than five teachers, five Chinese teachers were known to be in relationships with students. (I don't say "dating" because what Chinese teacher dates? Who knows how the relationships were viewed, I only know the numbers.)
And a friend, a student, was talking one day of how she introduced one teacher here to one student here. It was okay, she said, because the girl would graduate soon and both girl and teacher were local people.
And another friend is the girlfriend of a teacher, but not a teacher from here--they met in middle school.
That I'm aware of, no foreign teacher is currently seeing anyone. It seems the Chinese staff have a lock.
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foreign teachers have no power in china
They have the power to take one "lucky" girl (or boy) back with them to their home country to gain foreign citizenship.
That's a pretty big power over a lot of people here.
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Not really. Most Chinese uni students would like to go abroad for a visit, but very few have any great desire to leave the motherland for an extended period of time.
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Not really. Most Chinese uni students would like to go abroad for a visit, but very few have any great desire to leave the motherland for an extended period of time.
You might be coming at that from a Beijing perspective Decurso. That's not my experience in the hinterlands.
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and i think a lot of chinese people don't want to leave because it's pretty different, but they would leave given a realistic chance
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Not really. Most Chinese uni students would like to go abroad for a visit, but very few have any great desire to leave the motherland for an extended period of time.
You might be coming at that from a Beijing perspective Decurso. That's not my experience in the hinterlands.
Not my experience either, almost anywhere in China....I think the numbers happy to stay home even with the opportunity to go abroad are much higher now and growing quickly, but IMHO not yet a majority.
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well it's impossible to generalise about china as well. for one thing they don't have the culture of having and expressing an honest opinion and another thing is simply cos of the size of the place millions and millions are desperate to leave and millions and millions would never leave whatever you paid them.....
'chinese culture' is just some bullshit made up to justify different interests. how can they have a culture within our understanding of the word in such a vast and populous area with such disparities
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well, it's a bit like how everyone says they want to write a book but not many people actually want to sit down and 'do' writing for 4 hous a day for a year....
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foreign teachers have no power in china
They have the power to take one "lucky" girl (or boy) back with them to their home country to gain foreign citizenship.
That's a pretty big power over a lot of people here.
If we use that standard, no foreigner should be allowed to date any Chinese person under any circumstances.
Let's see... I can only date people of my own country, my own income, my own social standing. I can only date people that I have no possible business relationship with. Our family backgrounds, education levels, IQs, ages, and maturity levels should be as close to identical as possible. Our personalities must be matched closely enough that neither of us can ever have the slightest power over each other.
Let's see. . . According to the US Census, there's only one eligible female that I'm allowed to date.
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I've ben avoiding this until now. I am now working where my g/f graduated from last year. She was never my student nor attended a place where I worked. We met somewhere completely different.
Whenever my students find out I have a g/f, they (usually girls) ask if she is Chinese, then young, then beautiful, sometimes where is she from. When I've mentioned she came from this school and city, the oohs and aahs are too much. I can't imagine their reaction if I told them her real age (1 or 2 older than some).
"Okay, open you text to page XXX. Any questions?"
"Yes teacher, are you going to get married"
"That's not in the book, read chapter 1"
"Teacher, will you take her to Canada?"
bibibibibi bibibibibi bibibibibi
So the perceived belief has little to do with reality.
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"some dudes step into a much more patriarchal society, where women and girls have much less power than in the West"
Ah, if only that were true!
My better half was my student (adult training center) when we met. It didn't go down too well with the school at the time but who cares, and we're still together some years on.
But power.. hmmm.., Quote of The Month for November has to be,
"Stupid smoking alcohol man. Do you ever think of making my breakfast?"
or maybe, said with utter contempt,
"I save all your money for you and you want to spend it on travel. You fu**ing man."
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I'm a little surprised this topic continues. We are this unsure about the rights and wrongs of getting it on with younger girls and using our work roles to meet them?
(a) it's easy and exciting
(b) it includes sex
(c) go on, admit, you don't care that much about teaching, right?
If the subject came first in your minds (phew, that's a strange sentence--just take it literally... and when I say "take it" I mean perceive it, if you know what I mean), hooking up with a student would be a puzzling and upsetting event over which you would deliberate, citing moral, pragmatic, and institutional qualms. Cease to be a teacher and commence to be a squeezer or assert the primacy of the ejumakation role? (Go on, who read that as ejaculation, hmm?)
Pfft. This thread is worse than a fat woman banner ad when it comes to embarrassment over showing strangers what you're reading. isn't it? Like one doesn't know that relationships are relationships are relationships. Amen.
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^ ah yes, so you did. But secretly.....
Ai, it's a carnal topic and seemingly will not detumesce. So I guess a vote is in order: how many of us are actively seeking younger, less mature, less well-travelled, less knowledgable, less experienced partners?
Perhaps acknowledging that young girls are attractive would help. It's pleasant to be among the youthful and sexually coltish.
As for actually getting dates... meh, I don't know. I can't remember the last time I went on an actual date with an actual person. Perhaps it would provide some perspective, should it ever happen again.
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Maybe she has a point but I'm not sure what it is. I work, she doesn't. I earn, she saves..., er, my cash. God, I'm such an old fashioned Chauvinist! I thought she was saving my cash so I could go traveling instead of me spending it all on booze. Which is almost impssible here.
Hey, I'm a nice caring guy. I'd happily cook her breakfast if she was awake before I went to work. She isn't. But weekends are mine. No chance.
Seriously, I see the problem: we (generalisation) are here for a good time. They (generalisation) want to own an apartment. No welfare state here. Who can blame them?
All I want is a comfortable life with no schizo-mentalist-family-problematic-hormonal-feminine-blah-blah.
Is there a country where women are gentle, mannerly, submissive, obedient, while still being desirable? Or am I dreaming of something impossible?
I'd like to discuss this further but she's pregnant so I have to fill her hot water bottle for bed, otherwise I'm an an unfeeling barsteward.
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Thunks mon, Im gong to abd. ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Well, almost.
I yet have to finish my drink.
Oh, shit! She's awake! I'm switching to
caring mode. Goodnight all!
PS Wrong thread, but how many of you have been stabbed by your girlfriend/wife? (Is that a sexist question?)
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/mod mode
Guys, keep in mind that this is an on-topic area specifically about family, marriage and relationships in China. In on-topic areas the threads need to stick to the topic stated in the OP.
So, please try and keep your responses on the topic of dating students. China being a patriarchal society (which I agree, it is), who wears the pants in the relationship, cultural relativity, stabbing, and all the other side discussions are perhaps tangentially related to the topic of teachers dating students, but let's try a bit harder to stick to the OP, alright?
/mod mode off
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Granted, I haven't actually been following the thread beyond skimming to ascertain broad topic outline, but it seems like a measure of objectivity is the simple answer to things like cultural relativity. (well, hmmmm, yeah, by definition... but indeed, is objectivity impossible?)
All cultures can be judged, I assert. Though it may be true that there is no pure human animal behind the culture, no common element that we all share beyond all needing a culture to begin expressing our existences and purposes. Nonetheless, what we do here today will echo... um, am I quoting 300? Moving right along...
Not all people cleave to the idea of particular kinds of relationships superseding other kinds of relationships. Nonetheless, all people have intrinsic and extrinsic elements, and you're obliged (by character or something) to respect one or the other. I'm moderately certain neither of them allow for ease of altering such institutionalised relationships as teacher-student.
Meh, too much philosophy.... really the only deal with students is you being a teacher brings you into proximity with them. That's what you want to tell your kids?
"Well, son, I first noticed your mother one balmy summer day. From up on the podium I could see straight down her shirt. It was Kismet."
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Since my former Chinese teaching job was with adults in a language mill with no grades, I'd personally have had no problem with dating any of the lovely girls in any of the classes. Some of them are still amongst my dearest friends and I'd still consider dating any of them, except that one of them introduced a friend to me who is now my GF.
One personal rule I had when I came back to China after regaining singlehood - Any girls that I got past Ni hao ma? with was clearly informed that I consider myself to be a lifer in the Big Silly. Visit the USA, no problem. Move back to USA and give hypothetical Chinese wife a green card - NOT an option.
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I do not want to get all pedantic and start playing with words but it pisses me off that people automatically assume that 'dating' means you are having sex with someone.
I am in the 'old' category but I still enjoy going out with students - in the sense of having fun and having an enjoyable time with someone. Some of them I have gone out with on a regular basis because we enjoy each others company and over time have become really good friends.
I am always aware, however, that when people see me with a young girl they come up with an equation like:
FOREIGNER IN CHINA + MALE +OLD + TEACHER X CHINESE STUDENT +FEMALE + YOUNG = SEX
and that is what pisses me off the most.
To some extent most people that have contributed here have made the assumption that "dating equals sex." That is underpinned by the idea that all men want all the time is to have sex with young girls.
I cannot change the way people think, but I sure am not going to change my approach to life because of that. That would mean people have 'power' over me in a situation that has nothing to do with them.
It might be playing with words but I like this definition of casual dating from About.com:
"An interaction between two people who are looking to get to know one another better, without commitments or promises. Either or both parties can be casually dating other people.
Casual dating differs from friends with benefits, in that friends with benefits engage in sexual activity together with no commitments to one another other, whereas casual dating may or may not involve sex, but its primary purpose is to determine what kind, if any, relationship will blossom."
Now, I must go out and get me one of these FriendWithBenefits people
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I avoid it but sometimes will do it. Better if there's more than one student, and more than one teacher.
gross
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But that's just me.
.
agagagagag Ben-Dan
Great topic - where else can you get semantics + sex in China ? ...... ummm ...... maybe I shouldn't have asked that question. bibibibibi EL et al and others might have an answer
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I have to agree with Ben-Dan (and guys, I know this is all light-hearted - I'm new here but you can take it for granted that, if anything I say seems overly serious, then either I've put it badly or you've misunderstood my tone).
It's pretty much impossible to discuss dating students in China without mentioning 'dating with Chinese characteristics', which means potential problems with family, culture, and yes, even knives. Mod - I take your point though so I'll shut up about that aspect.
But a 'dating students' thread in, say, Czech or Poland, would bring up lots of culture-related problems. Same in China. It's not easy to discuss the one without discussing the other. The ethics aren't the same.
A few years back I lectured at a uni in England. So all the students were adults. It was accepted that relationships happen between students and staff, but the guidelines were that the relationship must be made clear to the head of department, in order to prevent any conflicts over exam marking etc. It was also made clear that a teacher's authority should not be a factor in starting any relationship - but I guess that's a bit tricky to define.
Anyway, I'm all for it - I'm still happily attached to my first student date here in China, even when she says "You are a good teacher but a bad man".
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It's true! I'm an effin' great teacher but in all other repects hopeless. Well, not all - I'm not implying any physical shortcomings!
Dating students (actually, dating student, singular) has ruined my life, cocked up my entire future, destroyed my plans, enlarged my family, driven me to drink, enlightened me, bankrupted me, uplifted me, pissed off the management, enraged the relatives, made me mad, shown me aspects of China I never would have seen before, shown me aspects of China I didn't want to see and don't ever want to see again, made me very happy ... the list is endless.
But really - why is there any issue with dating adult students? I just don't see any problem apart from the specifically cultural one here in China and maybe one or two other places I've been.
I wouldn't like any mucky foreign teacher to date my daughter though. I'm pretty good at double standards!
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I am always aware, however, that when people see me with a young girl they come up with an equation like:
FOREIGNER IN CHINA + MALE +OLD + TEACHER X CHINESE STUDENT +FEMALE + YOUNG = SEX
and that is what pisses me off the most.
I think the generally assumed formula for assumption these days can be shortened to: White Male + Asia = Sex tourist
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I often say, "Fuck the students," but it is always figurative and never literal!
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FOREIGNER IN CHINA + MALE +OLD + TEACHER X CHINESE STUDENT +FEMALE + YOUNG = SEX
I think the generally assumed formula for assumption these days can be shortened to: White Male + Asia = Sex tourist
Which one is on a the tour?
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Love the avatar Ben-Dan. Takes me back to middle school when album covers did more than cover albums
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foreign teachers have no power in china
They have the power to take one "lucky" girl (or boy) back with them to their home country to gain foreign citizenship.
That's a pretty big power over a lot of people here.
To add a bit to what I said earlier (perhaps as a verification or proof of point) I just now saw this ad on echinacities, copy/paste for your reference:
ASSISTANT FEMALE WANTED BY AMERICAN TALENT SCOUT FOR FILMS/MODELLING, GUANGZHOU
Job Description:
I M A WHITE HANDSOME AMERICAN TALENT SCOUT IN THE FILM/MODELLING FIELD....
I WANT A FEMALE ASSISTANT...PAY ....INITIALLY 5.000 RMB PER MONTH..
PLUS THE REAL POSSIBILITY OF COMING TO LIVE IN USA ..WITH ME ...
NATURALLY ;)
CALL ME ...FRANK
Oh, I think we could definitely call him "frank". That was my point originally when I said that a "power" one could hold over a local person (or at least some foreigners like to think) is the ability to take them back to their home country. Personally, anyone who writes a public ad like this sounds like either a dateless loser, or just a scumbag in general, but that is besides the point.
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Oh, I think we could definitely call him "frank". That was my point originally when I said that a "power" one could hold over a local person (or at least some foreigners like to think) is the ability to take them back to their home country. Personally, anyone who writes a public ad like this sounds like either a dateless loser, or just a scumbag in general, but that is besides the point.
but i guess the girls he attracts will be scumbags too, i think a lot of these girls are more than happy to put out for guys who they can get something from. in my experience the whole narrative of the naive young girl tricked into a life of servitude by the bad westerner is much less common than the foreign loser tricked into a life of servitude by the snake with tits :D
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That's pretty standard stuff for a Chinese though
http://www.chinahush.com/2010/11/29/beautiful-girls-walk-runway-for-ceo-high-end-jobs/