Bin Laden be Dead

[quote au. It's a big event, and it's always nice to be able to feel part of a community, especially when most of us are away from home.

But Israel! They had nothing to do with this as far as I know.

All I meant,Mr Benn ,is that over here whenever there is a political assassination of a terrorist,one feels condemnation from all sides,but it's all fine for the great big U S of A to do that. We have had various Hamas leaders who masterminded bombings of innocent civilians targeted and it always feels like the rest of the civilized world is not backing the Israeli army's actions when that happens.

[hope this isn't too political and whatnot, as others are doing it, and I tried to water down my rhetoric a bit.]

I'm torn on conspiracy theories. On the one hand most of them are wacko, and the one financed by Big Oil to convince a mentally lazy population that global warming doesn't exist is criminally wrong. On the other governments and businesses conspire all the time to F over the rest of the population (think Wall Street, or Melamine, or even Operation Iraqi Freedom), and if one suspects wrongdoing one gets labeled a "conspiracy theorist." After Bush stole the 2nd election with chad-less Republican-owned black box voting machines which produced statistically impossible anomalies, anyone who hadn't drunk the Kool-Aid was a "basement blogger" and "conspiracy nut".

As regards Israel and terrorists and who gets killed and who is a "terrorist" and who celebrates, it's all much clearer when one takes out the label "terrorist" and just uses "killer".

I remember very clearly in the run-up to Operation Iraqi Freedom that Donal Rumsfeld was talking about using "Shock and Awe" to devastate Iraq. I imagine there wasn't much difference when the bombs started falling between "terror" and "shock and awe."

Sometimes if I just think of governments as businesses with weapons, massive PR campaigns and false advertising, everything makes sense. If I try to think of it any other way it's extremely confusing, unless of course I drink the Kool-Aid, accept the labels, and see things as Black & White (Us are white and Them is black).

As soon as someone is labeled a "terrorist" they are automatically wrong, even if they are protecting their homeland from an enemy invader. Meanwhile you can drop bombs on people's homes, and you are a "freedom fighter" or a "hero". So I just prefer "killer" or "murderer". And sometimes the bigger murderer kills the smaller murderer and everyone celebrates, rallies around the flag, while meanwhile getting screwed themselves by the big murderer.

I think Colonel Kurtz got it write when he told Captain Willard: "You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks....to collect a bill." It's all business, greed and corruption, and vying for power. The leaders are just selfish neighbors with bigger cars wanting more and willing to do whatever it takes to get it.

The old adage "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" still seems to ring true.

agree with 99% of what you said Ben Dan but too knackered to think clearly enough with you to debate the 1% right now....

On that note, I think we should put this puppy to bed

I agree with DD. Ding-dong the horrible man is dead...now on to more pressing things like on-going wars, famine, the undeniable fact that Tinky-Winky is the spawn of the Devil and other important global considerations

agree with 99% of what you said Ben Dan but too knackered to think clearly enough with you to debate the 1% right now....

ah, well, what I wrote was at least 20% bull (I'm no expert and there's a lot of overstatement and oversimplification in there, and I haven't figured everything out by a long shot) so any small % you caught on to that you disagree with you're probably right about. 

…And I'm always glad to agree to disagree.

Get your rest and forget about yours truly 

http://propagandistmag.com/2011/05/02/what-if-osama-bin-laden-had-been-killed-israel
this is pretty much what I meant. Over here,when the IDF kills a terrorist responsible for a terror attack (and by that I mean a person who goes into where innocent people are going about their daily lives) the knee jerk reaction is to condemn it at the UN

this is pretty much what I meant. Over here,when the IDF kills a terrorist responsible for a terror attack (and by that I mean a person who goes into where innocent people are going about their daily lives) the knee jerk reaction is to condemn it at the UN

This doesn't really add up.  Every Presidential candidate puts on a yamaka and proclaims himself to be the staunches backer of Israel in the field.  The U.S. has always allied itself with Israel.  That position and our quest for oil are the biggest reasons for fundamentalist uprising against the U.S. and, perhaps, 9-11.  Yes, there is a backlash against such lock-step policy and with good reason.  Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands it the biggest irritant in the Middle East and all countries who support her pay a price for it.  It's long past due that this is reassessed.

I certainly don't support the occupation of the West Bank and I am all in favour of the Palestinian State which will come whether Netanyahu and the Loony Right want it or not.
However, the problem is the Terror attacks started way before 1967
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_against_Israeli_civilians_before_1967.

Getting back to OBL; yes, the extrajudicial killing was illegal. Perhaps the lack of comdemnation is because

a) it was isolated, though since we (NATO) had a pretty good go at Ghaddafi at the weekend as well, perhaps not that isolated.

b) it serves a purpose. (Of course that's debatable)

The decisions that world leaders have to take are often morally murky. This killing also throws up the issue of information obtained from Gitmo.

There are certainly ethical problems with celebrating the death of a human being, but  I just have to accept that on this occasion at least I'm ok with that.

I'm fairly convinced he's gone...but I think many here, including me, want to see images of the body.

This came up on a local site...WARNING!!! It IS Graphic
http://bermudaisanotherworld.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=jd5ckrg7tpb1rvtndun9ihue5&topic=3703.msg118803

Yep, very graphic.

I think that may be a real pic, but question if it's really Osama and not just someone with a similar face.  Unless he's been dying his hair and beard, the corpse seems to have a lot less gray hair than I'd expect.


Some say that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.  I disagree.  There's a core difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter:

Like any real soldier, any real freedom fighter would primarily go after military and government targets.  Civilian casualties could happen, but would be incidental to striking the true target. In a larger real war, crippling industry, communication, and transportation can also happen, but the enemy's military should still remain the primary focus.  On the other hand, a terrorist will usually take the coward's way by deliberately going after civilian targets because they are easier to get to and will create more fear in the general public.  Terrorists will only rarely go after military targets, both due to the reduced chances of success as well as the fact that the death of a group of professional soldiers won't usually inspire quite the same level of shock and fear as the death of unarmed civilians going about their daily lives. Suicide bombers have even been sometimes targeted children since that would provoke a larger reaction.

Osama was exceptional in that he did go after more military and government targets than the "typical" terrorist, but his deliberate targeting of civilians when he could just as easily had his suicide pilots use something other than planes full of passengers and done the attacks against military bases removes any chance of classifying him as anything but a filthy terrorist scumbag who deserved to be killed a lot sooner.

I hope there's a special place in hell for people like him.
(and that whoever decided to put My Heart Will Go On in every KTV in China ends up in the same place)

Piglet:

And,sorry guys but this IS political whichever way you chew it.

And politics, as JLMrB notes, can be pretty divisive. One reason why I haven't waded into this one yet. I tend to be rather contrarian.
I saw this article in the sports section today. I'm not a big fan of sports writers who think they are qualified to make observations on larger matters, but in this case I'll make an exception.

http://www.thestar.com/article/985026--kelly-it-lessens-us-to-revel-in-bin-laden-s-death#article

If you’re going to celebrate a targeted assassination anywhere, a Philadelphia ballpark is probably the right place to do it.

Those fans have a peculiar brand of angry homerism that combines flag-waving nostalgia and distant violence really well.

If getting rid of Osama was something that would actually effect US foreign policy, would actually put an end to these wars, I feel like it would be something to more or less be happy about. But news outlets seem pretty quick to run stories about who is next in line and why the mission in Afganistan is far from over.

Unfortunately, I feel like the miltary-industrial complex will always be finding excuses to continue to fight wars and victory really can't be defined. If this isn't a victory over terrorism- a point from which things will actually change- I don't really see the reason to celebrate.