Mandarin Question (difference between 'ba' and 'shi bu shi')

Hello,

I'm attempting to pick up some of the language before I get to China. I'm currently using a few different books, websites and methods. However, I'm confused over the difference between 'ba' and 'shi bu shi' in this sense:

Ni shi Yingguo-ren, shi bu shi?

Ni shi Yingguo-ren ba?

My theory is this:

They both seem to be operating as a tag question, but with a slight difference. The first one seems to say 'You're English, aren't you?' but maybe I'm not sure (in English I think we'd say 'aren't you' in a rising tone).

The second one seems to say 'You're English, aren't you?' and I'm just confirming the fact (we'd say the 'aren't you' in a falling tone).


Is that right?

Not an expert, but I think you have it about right - the first is a more 'genuine' question whereas the second is checking an assumption...however these laowai ears rarely seem to pick up 'ba' being used in questions anyway, to me it's much more often used in it's function of softening suggestions or creating mild encouragement, eg, 'women zou ba' (let's go, eh?) etc.

Personally I wouldn't agonise over subtle usage issues, after enough time and exposure to the language these little things often fall into place naturally as if your brain has been working on them behind the scenes the whole time.

If you do like the grammar analysis though, the two books "Basic Chinese" and "Intermediate CHinese" by Po-Ching/Rimmington are great for this stuff.

Edit:  There's a Chinese Pod Lesson on the use of 'ba' which deals with this and other issues - I can email it to you if you don't have access.

Hi MK,

Thanks for the information. I do enjoy picking through grammar from time to time (that's why I like teaching English) so I'll have a look at those books.

I don't have access to Chinese Pod yet, but I was considering it. Would you recommend signing up to it?

If you could send me that 'ba' lesson that'd be great (I'll PM you my email address).

I think you basically have it right. The way I heard it explained in a language tape is that "shi ba" means something like, "isn't that so?" (Or if you are a Canadian: "Eh?")

"Shi bu shi", or just "ma", asks a question without suggesting any opinion on behalf of the speaker.

I don't have access to Chinese Pod yet, but I was considering it. Would you recommend signing up to it?

yes and yes.

excellent for communicative Chinese (though it wont help your writing much)

also an excellent reference tool and way to consolodate your studies.

I've been using them for several years now, my main source of Chinese study, and last year I won the Irish National Mandarin competition （汉语桥）. Nuff Said.

try    www.chinese-forums.com    for good info on the lanaguage aspects.

And if we want to get even more in depth "shi bu shi" often means more along the lines of "isn't that right?" where the speaker is halfway convinced of an answer already, whereas a simple "ma" doesn't show any sort of opinion on the matter.

Either way, someone using "ba" or "shibushi" is already convinced you're English!

And because people brought it up, skritter is fantastic for your written Chinese and will reinforce your vocabulary.

As for ba and shi bu shi in this situation, I really don't believe there is a significant difference.

I'm kinda with Jimi02 on this one.

Ni shi Yingguo-ren, shi bu shi?
Ending a sentence with "shi bu shi" makes it a question.
The translation would be "Are you British?" or maybe "You're British, right?"

Ni shi Yingguo-ren ba?
The 'ba' particle indicates a suggestion or elicitation. I never heard it used like this example sentence all that often. I see it more with verbs: "Zou ba." ("Let's go.")
The translation might be something like "Aren't you British?" or maybe "You're British, aren't you?"

The difference in the two might be subtle, at least with this example, but it's definitely there.

My Chinese gf says:

"Ni shi Yingguo-ren, shi bu shi?" would mean "You are an Englishman, yes or no?"

Shi bu shi is essentailly a way of saying "yes or no?" They use it in all manner of ways such as 'Ni lei bu lei ma?' meaning "You tired not tired?" (lit).

"Shi" means 'yes', "bu" means 'no'. These are quite common words and useful to adopt.

"Ni shi Yingguo-ren ba?" would mean "You are an Englishman, right?" So basically, 'ba' means "right?"... when you're sure you know the answer but want to confirm it.

You are doing the right thing trying to get a handle on all of this before you come.  BUT... just remember that what you hear over here WON'T be the same!!  Similar to learning beautiful Oxford English, then heading to Scotland to work.  Different areas will use slightly different structures, interrogative endings, and the pronunciation can vary wildly from place to place.  "Shi bu shi" may be pronounced as  "si ba si" or other forms depending on where you are. Different places will use an 'er' ending on words more frequently than others - yi diandian is more common here than yidian(r) (heard as yi diar), but friends here will call other mates Wang Junr (heard as Juar) rather than Wang Jun. 

The gov't tries to teach standard putonghua in schools and universities, and there is some success.  But - many university teachers will say to me, "My Chinese is very poor.  I really only started to use putonghua when I came to university, and I still don't pronounce it properly".  Shopkeepers and waitresses will speak local-hua (and if they come from out of the province, some of the locals won't be able to understand them properly as well!).  The students who leave school at the end of their 9 years compulsory schooling (ha ha) will revert to local-hua - because that is what is spoken at home, by their friends and around them.  Similar to the amount of French we learned at high school and how much we used it outside class.

I've seen universities with signs up encouraging both teachers and students to use putonghua rather than local dialect, but if there have to be signs - then it means that it is a problem. 

A couple of my Shaanxi friends will refuse to speak to Gansu or Sichuan friends of mine on the phone, because they tell me the Chinese is too hard to understand!!

TV programs are quite frequently broadcast in local-hua as well, particularly provincial stations.  I am told CCTV 1 has the most standard pronunciation, but some of my friends are highly critical of the word usage and pronunciation on the other CCTV stations.  There is a reason most stations use subtitles in their programming!!

Older people, particular village people, will not always understand putonghua either.

It's a fun place to learn a language!!

I've been using them for several years now, my main source of Chinese study, and last year I won the Irish National Mandarin competition （汉语桥）. Nuff Said.

Wooo, check out the big brain on Brett!

I love Chinese Pod too, but you have to be pretty disciplined to get the most out of it (I'm not).  Still, it's a lot of fun to use, the lessons are very fresh and up to date.  Subscriptions prices are about to go up on March 1st, BTW.

Quote from: Fozzwaldus

I've been using them for several years now, my main source of Chinese study, and last year I won the Irish National Mandarin competition （汉语桥）. Nuff Said.

Wooo, check out the big brain on Brett!
 

I guess that did sound a little arrogant, huh?   Apologies.

Probably because it's the first time I've ever been the champion at anything at all.

I didn't see what you said as arrogant - just happy!  I think it's pretty fantastic actually. 

problem is I'm too Irish - we don't know how to handle success! 

cheers lads