Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The Love, Marriage and Family Board (ON-TOPIC) => Topic started by: Arnold J. Rimmer on March 25, 2012, 04:39:04 AM
-
I have a few questions for the learned parents residing on RCS uuuuuuuuuu Hopefully any answers that I get will also be useful to the other guys on here that are expecting babies too... psd4fan and opiate.
1) Did you buy an after birth insurance plan before the baby came? If so, how much was it and which company did you use?
2) Do you use nappies (diapers) for your little one? Obviously Chinese parents favour the good old split pants/ shit anywhere approach, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable using nappies. Thing is, I have heard they are really expensive here mmmmmmmmmm
3) How have you approached the learning two languages thing? Do you always speak English around Junior? or, only English at home and Chinese outside?
Would really appreciate your help guys bfbfbfbfbf
-
I'll try and answer your questions ...
1) Nope.
2) Yes, we used mostly Pampers but sometimes Huggies or the Mami-Poko brands as well. They're expensive-ish, I guess, but not really that expensive? Amazon.cn sells them online and has some pretty good deals sometimes. My 2 year old is still in diapers and my 4 year old potty trained at about 3. We did it the Western way, I refuse to put my kids in split pants and my kids do not own even a single pair.
3) I actually wrote an article about this recently. I was not a very good at one-parent-one-language. People will tell you this is the way to go but if your spouse doesn't speak English it is actually quite difficult to keep up. My kid's English is improving a lot right now but that's mostly because he's in an English medium class at school and he also has his English speaking grandparents living here so he's not counting only on me for his English. If your wife speaks English then doing Minority Language at Home is a better method I think, since the child is getting more English exposure overall. If you plan on having more than one kid you can make English your family language. The drawback is that if you ever return to your home country then your child won't be getting Chinese outside the home so you'll have to switch up your approach. But really there's no one right way, you'll figure out the approach to bilingualism that works best for your family.
-
Thanks a lot Local Dialect... some great answers! bfbfbfbfbf
My other half speaks English almost fluently, so I guess we could make the home an English zone. Only problem is that my Chinese sucks... so would I confuse the poor kid if we're out of the house? mmmmmmmmmm
Also, I wondered what kind of comments have you heard from Chinese people about your kids when you're out and about? I would imagine it's overwhelmingly positive, but a few snide remarks come out every now and then. Is that the case?
-
AJR, even if your home is an English only zone, you can still keep using English with your child outside the house.
What might happen at some point is that your child will understand you in English but respond in Chinese when outside the house. Sometimes kids feel ebarrassed to be seen or heard speaking a foreign language when they're in their Chinese environment. You might also find that your kid will designate certain places/people as being Chinese and others as being English.
As for comments from others, I don't think I've actually ever heard a snide remark about the kids themselves, but certainly about us as parents. You know Chinese people, especially older women, can be overbearing about childrearing advice even with fellow Chinese people, but when you're a foreigner you're sure to get an earful about how little/much your child is wearing or what he's eating or how he's getting confused with two languages.
The comments that the kids themselves get are never ill intentioned they are just sometimes ignorant. People ask my kids where they come from, call them little laowai, and really fuss over their ability to speak Chinese. My son hates all of this, and though people are saying it endearingly, still, he was born here, he doesn't think of himself as a foreigner. His Chinese language ability is far from impressive considering it is his native language and he's almost 4 and a half. People just don't think and so they say stupid things and you have to teach your kids to handle it. You and your wife will probably be much more sensitive on your kids' behalves than they are themselves at first, but once they start getting old enough to understand, you have to start having talks with them about these issues.
-
Not that I have much input on this topic, but i will suggest beijing-kids.com as another place to ask these questions for even more feedback.
-
As horrifying as the possibility is, this is a good one to ask your in-laws. aoaoaoaoao
Think about it. Many areas of China are inherently bilingual (if not multilingual) - hometown language and Mandarin (and sometimes another language or two). My wife and my best friend both speak 4 languages well. China probably has more hands-on experience with bilingual education than the US and Europe combined.
-
AJR, even if your home is an English only zone, you can still keep using English with your child outside the house.
What might happen at some point is that your child will understand you in English but respond in Chinese when outside the house. Sometimes kids feel ebarrassed to be seen or heard speaking a foreign language when they're in their Chinese environment. You might also find that your kid will designate certain places/people as being Chinese and others as being English.
As for comments from others, I don't think I've actually ever heard a snide remark about the kids themselves, but certainly about us as parents. You know Chinese people, especially older women, can be overbearing about childrearing advice even with fellow Chinese people, but when you're a foreigner you're sure to get an earful about how little/much your child is wearing or what he's eating or how he's getting confused with two languages.
The comments that the kids themselves get are never ill intentioned they are just sometimes ignorant. People ask my kids where they come from, call them little laowai, and really fuss over their ability to speak Chinese. My son hates all of this, and though people are saying it endearingly, still, he was born here, he doesn't think of himself as a foreigner. His Chinese language ability is far from impressive considering it is his native language and he's almost 4 and a half. People just don't think and so they say stupid things and you have to teach your kids to handle it. You and your wife will probably be much more sensitive on your kids' behalves than they are themselves at first, but once they start getting old enough to understand, you have to start having talks with them about these issues.
Really invaluable advice. Thanks a lot!
Why do you think your son's Chinese is not as good as expected? Because he hasn't been to school yet? mmmmmmmmmm
-
As horrifying as the possibility is, this is a good one to ask your in-laws. aoaoaoaoao
Think about it. Many areas of China are inherently bilingual (if not multilingual) - hometown language and Mandarin (and sometimes another language or two). My wife and my best friend both speak 4 languages well. China probably has more hands-on experience with bilingual education than the US and Europe combined.
An excellent point.
In my case though, the in-laws only speak the purest putonghua ahahahahah
-
AJR, even if your home is an English only zone, you can still keep using English with your child outside the house.
What might happen at some point is that your child will understand you in English but respond in Chinese when outside the house. Sometimes kids feel ebarrassed to be seen or heard speaking a foreign language when they're in their Chinese environment. You might also find that your kid will designate certain places/people as being Chinese and others as being English.
As for comments from others, I don't think I've actually ever heard a snide remark about the kids themselves, but certainly about us as parents. You know Chinese people, especially older women, can be overbearing about childrearing advice even with fellow Chinese people, but when you're a foreigner you're sure to get an earful about how little/much your child is wearing or what he's eating or how he's getting confused with two languages.
The comments that the kids themselves get are never ill intentioned they are just sometimes ignorant. People ask my kids where they come from, call them little laowai, and really fuss over their ability to speak Chinese. My son hates all of this, and though people are saying it endearingly, still, he was born here, he doesn't think of himself as a foreigner. His Chinese language ability is far from impressive considering it is his native language and he's almost 4 and a half. People just don't think and so they say stupid things and you have to teach your kids to handle it. You and your wife will probably be much more sensitive on your kids' behalves than they are themselves at first, but once they start getting old enough to understand, you have to start having talks with them about these issues.
Really invaluable advice. Thanks a lot!
Why do you think your son's Chinese is not as good as expected? Because he hasn't been to school yet? mmmmmmmmmm
No no, it is as good as expected. I see how what I wrote was kind of unclear. What I mean is, for any kid who was born here and has at least one native speaking parent, speaking perfect Chinese is not some impressive megaskill. I would be worried if he didn't speak good Chinese considering it is his native language, and I don't consider the ability to speak one's own native language "impressive." The only reason they comment on his Chinese being so amazing is because he looks white. If he looked 100% Chinese no one would be saying wow, your kid speaks awesome Chinese. Due to his looks, they expect him to be fluent in English and suck at Chinese, when in fact English is his weaker language by far. That his Chinese is stronger than his English should be a given (considering we actually live here and he has a bajillion people to learn Chinese from, whereas English? It is just me and my parents, his grandparents, who also live here), but it isn't for most people because they just don't use their brains and think.
-
It's pretty interesting stuff. When we raise our kids I'm planning that we'll use three languages (English, Chinese, Spanish) in the home, and then will also send them to Hebrew school once they're old enough. I'd like them to have four or five languages (three modern, two classical) by the time they go to uni.
seriously? how are you going to run that household? what's the other classical language?
-
Why not throw Gaelic in the mix too? and perhaps an obscure Chinese dialect? Make it Wenzhou-hua if you want your kids to get on in life. bfbfbfbfbf
Yep. Your kids are going to be virgins in grad-school, but on the plus side they will be able to communicate with all sorts of interesting people on World of Warcraft. ahahahahah ahahahahah
-
English, Mandarin, Arabic
Your kids could buy drugs and explosives pretty much everywhere.
-
1 No
2 Yes. Pampers or equivalent. Nappy-less for a day or so if it's very hot or baby looks a bit sore.
3 As it comes - no plan, just what happens naturally.
-
I have a few questions for the learned parents residing on RCS uuuuuuuuuu Hopefully any answers that I get will also be useful to the other guys on here that are expecting babies too... psd4fan and opiate.
1) Did you buy an after birth insurance plan before the baby came? If so, how much was it and which company did you use?
2) Do you use nappies (diapers) for your little one? Obviously Chinese parents favour the good old split pants/ shit anywhere approach, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable using nappies. Thing is, I have heard they are really expensive here mmmmmmmmmm
3) How have you approached the learning two languages thing? Do you always speak English around Junior? or, only English at home and Chinese outside?
Would really appreciate your help guys bfbfbfbfbf
1. Not yet but possibly. 2. At night and when out but cloth otherwise. Split pants only if I can have a pair too. aoaoaoaoao 3. Wifey will speak Chinese and I will speak English.
-
3. Wifey will speak Chinese and I will speak English.
The only thing I wonder about this approach is what about when you and your wife speak to each other in front of the baby?
-
Mostly English. Shouldn't be a big problem.
-
Our daughter is on the way....
I'm not sure on the insurance, it depends on the cost, but when you have family and friends who are doctors, you get a lot of medical care for free
Mrs. Casey already has cloth diapers, but I'm going to see if she will go for the huggies at night. We are both on agreement on the split pants and that answer is HELL NO!!!!!.
We are are planning on spending about 5 years here so she can learn English at home (the wife and I communicate only in English) and she can learn Chinese from the family. Now the only time the wife speaks Chinese is when she is talking to family, friends and when we go shopping. After 5 years we are going to move back to the states she she can go to school in the US. The wife just does not care for the Chinese system for rote memorization, plus she wants her to have the chance to play in organized sports in school.
-
Ok, I'll answer this from a viewpoint of 6 years further on.
Little Miss N just turned six.
We didn't have insurance.
We used neither the split pants nor nappies/pampers except while travelling. Split pants got the big veto, as did shitting in public (although urination was tolerated but not encouraged)
Toilet trained by about a year. She turned one in Australia, and I distinctly remember she only needed nappies on the trip itself, and long distances. Nappies etc NAPPY train the kid to shit themselves and get used to it. We preferred to teach her to go to the toilet. Never any issues in this direction at all. Of course, used a Nanny here which helped a lot.
English zone at home, enforced pretty rigidly, Chinese anywhere else. English zone applies to any and all people with English skills. My other job where she comes regularly is an English zone while she is there too. And I try to encourage others to do so, but they keep being fascinated for some reason she can speak perfectly good Chinese. They think the English is normal, but it's the hard thing, since I am the only native speaker she speaks to. It's a struggle.
She is native speaker up to standard in Putonghua and English, with false spanish learning(dora the explorer - counting, colours a few words) and some Cantonese/baihua which will be her next language, I would say.
Falling behind with her writing a bit since she is in a good school here, but they won't let me take her home at lunchtime to teach her as I have been doing with the preschool stuff. Homework after school leaves insufficient time for working on what she needs. WOrking on that in holidays, weekends, and she is catching up again. Luckily the holidays are long and I get them too.
We plan on staying in China until she can get the basics of Chinese writing (school teaches both modified and traditional) and her maths goes well enough. Maybe two more years. Then back to Oz for a couple of years, then maybe Germany for end of primary/early high school.
Memorization has definite advantages, and is not to be despised. Engineers and scientists apparently are 25% less efficient since now they calculate all the time on computers and such instead of in their heads, so discussions keep halting for them to stop dicking around with machines and lose track, instead of just saying, yeah, obviously... etc. Maths education here is apparently world class, right up in front. Rote learning works for some things better than other methods. Overdone in China, underdone in most of the west. At school I remember thinking, why am I remembering this when I could look it up? But knowing it is so much more efficient. Imagine learning a language where you had to look up each word first. The plot would be lost.
Other aspects of Chinese edjamakashun are distasteful, so doing what I can. The school is pretty modern (expensive) for China, lots of Dr, profs, rich bastard, etc kids, and seems fine mostly, although I get irritated a lot by minor crap that could be improved (probably would get irritated by minor crap that could be improved back home too, but probably different crap).
Maths, other skills, and that kind of thing she is up to about 2nd class or so for most things, according to some US testing software, but not that I trust that much. When we go back to Oz my school teacher rellies hassle her and make sure I am getting it about right.
I only wish she had more time to play with other kids. School is 8am to 5pm, and she gets home for about half an hour before dinner, where I give her English stuff. Only gets about an hour a day play at home, but school does a lot apparently. An hour's homework, until time for bed. Sigh.
Mixed blood kids are going to be apart their whole lives to some extent, one way or the other. Being native speaker removes one more barrier.
She is having fun, not badgered into learning. Right now she is doing Chinese reading, and laughing. Earlier today we were going through reading at about 8 yo standard english thing on sloths and how they live. She likes learning especially animals and although she needs help in reading at that level, she enjoys it more, and it stretches her.
Dr Seuss once said that kids have a vocab in words about 5 times that of what they can read, and a mind that's in front of that. I use that to get her moving ahead.
She wants to learn music, but I don't want to overburden her.
-
Wow, you are doing a fantastic job bfbfbfbfbf agagagagag agagagagag
Your daughter sounds like a real treasure akakakakak akakakakak
-
Thanks. DS. Being the father of a little girl, naturally I think she is a treasure. Her chinese name apparently means Family Treasure in one interpretation ababababab.
I am trying, but it's a struggle since few people around here including Mrs N really understand the issues of bilingual households and the difficulties of becoming a native speaker of a foreign language in a foreign country. llllllllll
Australia has a lot of people who are bilingual, but mostly they are insufficiently able at their family's language, and often not up to native speaker in English either, depending on their age of arrival. I read a few studies, drew a few conclusions and appear to have been correct, at least so far, and with a sample of one. bfbfbfbfbf
Native speaker in 3 languages is the goal, but I will settle for English. Putonghua and Cantonese can fend for themselves. Don't tell Mrs N I said that.
And Maths ability would be really cool. That way she has both Mrs N's language and hopefully my maths/science. She seems to like maths, and can do it in both languages (yeah, its the same, it was supposed to be funny....). I should say arithmetic. They haven't covered multiplication or division yet at school, only addition and subtraction, and she can handle most of that without her fingers, using some tricks I have taught her. Going to start on the brainetics tricks later to help her out. (google it, then pirate the stuff. Hyped up tricks, but still, anything to make it easier.)
Learning to read Chinese is supposed to enhance memory and maths ability, not sure why the latter.
She does enjoy all the standard kiddy science projects and I am putting together a small lab, so show her some stuff there for fun. Grows tadpoles, watches bugs eat, feeds the turtles, grows plants from seeds. helps with cooking, etc. KNows a fair bit about the planets and how day and night are made, pretty cool for a young'un. Used a globe and a laser light, and she got it. Having daddy in different countries skyping her in different time zones probably helped. Geography fair, can point at Oz, China, UK, Germany, africa madagaskar (movie interests) and a few other places where visiting students come from. Knows the compass. I am following what is supposed to be the standard stuff for NSW school curriculum, but I suspect that mostly they are dreaming that most kids can do it to the level they say they want, but mostly we have it covered, except the reading (which she can do but won't do alone) and the writing, which she doesnt like doing. I suspect that's mostly because I think she doesn't like not being able to write well enough to describe what she can think of. Hence the Dr Seuss observation in previous post.
Working on reading and writing, but she isn't enjoying it unless we do it together. Not that I mind, but I want her to enjoy it for herself. It seems she thinks of reading as a group activity. I tend to think of it as solo. She does read Chinese by herself, but due to the complex nature, only reads signs, not stories yet. I am writing some reading "books" of about 8 pages, using (trying to use ananananan) Dr Seuss's principles, and they are working to make it more interesting, but there are only so many hours in a day.
On the other hand she tells and draws complex stories about all sorts of things and easily differentiates between fantasy and reality, but prefers the latter. I think she is dissappointed that fairies aren't real. Mrs N going around zapping mosquitoes saying they are fairies tickled her fancy though. She can draw nearly as well as I can, but that's not exactly a stretch, even for a kid. oooooooooo
-
There have been studies done on children learning chess and improved math ability. bjbjbjbjbj
Maybe you should add that to your scheduled teaching during the spring festival break. bjbjbjbjbj agagagagag agagagagag
-
I heard this about chess too, and my father probably also heard this. I got hothoused as a child, beating out slide rules in the head, etc, and later calculators. Reading at 3, etc. Chess at about 8. I don't remember when I learned.
Father forced me to learn chess as a child. At high school, I used to trash the 'champions' of the school, when forced to play, even those much older. They felt I played irrationally, but I suspect they just couldn't see what I was doing to win. Stopped at about 15 when I discovered pot and rebellion. Didn't play chess again for nearly 20 years, until a uni champion challenged me while studying for my second degree in the early nineties or late eighties. Still won 3 out of 5 matches, although he did let me take one move back per game when I saw the consequences since I was so out of practice. He saw me play in a 'drunken chess' competition at uni where I did well, given teh rules involved lots of beer, so wanted to see how I played sober. Don't recall why I played then, except maybe the free beer sounded good. That was the last time I played. Don't plan on playing again.
I really don't like chess. Even the beer wasn't that much of an improvement.
Maybe Mrs N knows. probably wait until she is older, though. Mrs N or Miss N. Miss N can do logic puzzles on an iphone looking thing Mrs N has to occupy Miss N while travelling, and does it well, faster than Mrs N, so probably she would do ok at chess. Maybe I'll introduce her to chess software. I am sure there is plenty around.
It's a good idea, but personally, aaaaaaaaaa
-
We used neither the split pants nor nappies/pampers except while travelling. Split pants got the big veto, as did shitting in public (although urination was tolerated but not encouraged)
What is the other option? No pants at all? Potty trained by one year? I'm intrigued...
-
When she needed the toilet, we rushed her to the potty, rather than either crap in her pants or do the crap where she was.
We used nappies only a little, disposable ones, and got her out of them instantly. She didn't really need them often.
My theory is that nappies should only be used for emergencies, because keeping kids in nappies only "nappy trains" them, rather than something useful like toilet training. It helped that the nanny was available for rapid deployment when we weren't but yes, she was potty trained by about 1 yo pretty reliably, except naturally nappies for long trips etc, and used chinese toilets about the same time as she was walking, and western toilets not long after, although we put a stool thing in place so she could get up on it.
It was a hell of a lot better than what I see other people trying, and it worked, that's all I can say, remembering sample group of one.
And I think I worked out the reading issue. She reads Chinese because there is Chinese everywhere to read. But English she only does with me because that is the only place it is, so naturally it's social. Not sure about a solution yet. Signs all around the house had no effect on this, although it helped with the general working out what letters sound like and English words for household stuff. Maybe need posters?
-
Mr Nobody, my son son is hearly 44 yrs old and he was reading a long time before he went to school. I taught him using Dr Seuss books. His father used to take him out fishing for the weekend, even before he could walk and later on taught him to shoot and used to take him hunting. I was the educator in one way and his Dad was in another way. Our son was also "potty trained" at a very young age which appeared to cause raised eyebrows at that time. The main thing that appeared to go wrong, was when he went to school. He was too far advanced and they didn't let him jump a class, (as I did) so he was VERY bored and turned off. Unfortunately,as he was growing up, I had to work long hours and his Dad had to go to another town to work. He wouldn't stay at school and drifted in and out of jobs because he got bored when there was nothing to learn. I think that it is only now that he is starting to realise what potential he had even though he is in a very well paid mining job. My son has also never recovered from the death of his father. He always talks about him and teaches his own sons what his Dad taught him. I could go on, but I'll stop now and say this. Mr Nobody, don't ever forget to make time for some really fun times with your little girl. I believe that she is a very lucky young lady to have you as her Dad. bfbfbfbfbf
-
She reads Dr Seuss. She enjoys it, too. She just doesn't read alone. Not English anyway. She can read fine, but just doesn't. Chinese, yes, but she can't read enough to read a story. This is apparently normal, takes a couple of more years to read Chinese than English. I merely worry that she won't develop in her reading if she only reads with me. But we do that every day, and have for years.
My mother thinks that will change when we move back, and isn't worried.
But thank you for your kind words ....
Parenting is harder than it looks. HOw did the human race every get this far with mere humans as parents?
Oh, yeah, forgot to look out at the planet.
-
My little girl can barely manage anything except a cry at this point and I am already going crazy about the language issue. My wife and I simply can not communicate in a single language. We are both at fault. Her English is not good enough to communicate well and my Chinese is the same. We actually speak Chinglish and whatever the opposite of Chinglish is. For my wife and I it works well but native English speakers and native Chinese speakers find it difficult to understand....and quite often laughable.
The English I taught my wife was simply to help her express herself easily with me. She did the same for me in Chinese. I have not taught my wife anything close to correct English. My Chinese is a mix of Putonghua and Qingdaohua with a bunch of words I use incorrectly but are understood correctly by my wife. I have tried using English only when talking to my baby but fail miserably.
My little girl's head is going to explode one day from the way we treat our respective languages. ananananan ananananan
-
On further considering what Granny Mae said, I would say that we feel that homeschooling is going to be a major part of Little Miss N's education. I can understand what happened to your son, and to tell the truth, something similar happened to me. Anything done at school here or back home is going to be ... taken under advisement. We will take the good bits, as we do here, and deal with the bad bits. If she gets bored (I did, and I was young for my class so they couldn't advance me further) I'll pull her out and go with home schooling. You can get them into Uni at 16 if they pass the entrance test, but I am not sure I want to do that either. Plenty of time. Maybe world travel, if the next stage of my plan works, as this current one is going ok so far.
I am sure, for example, she will get a better idea of shakespear or whatever if she goes to the globe and stratford than learning about it in the class room. Same for Marathon or Trelleborg, the Rosetta stone. etc.
And if the plans don't work, then, well, uni entrance can be done at any age, simply by doing the Open Foundation anyway. Besides, she may not want uni.
For Opiate, I am not sure what I would do. I would be worrying too. Crash course perhaps? Panic doesn't work: I tried that. I would consider going home very soon, I think. That way at least English would be accomplished. Mrs N is an English senior lecturer (her title translates as that, or AssPro or something similar), and I worry constantly that she is not good enough at English for our household here in China to get native speaker English happening for Miss N.
All I can say is kids are very flexible. Her brain won't explode, but instead integrate them into their respective languages as long as she gets enough exposure to both. She will become native speaker Chinese by default, if you do not work on the English good and hard.