Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Lotus Eater on September 04, 2007, 01:48:43 PM
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Decided to start this thread because I couldn't figure out how to fit it into either of the other threads that originated the thoughts.
My point about laowai criticising the Chinese education system is that EVERYONE already in the system KNOWS it is corrupt. I have had master's students write their thesis on corruption within the education system - running surveys on teachers and students to assess the level of corrupt practice. The same with the political system and any other institutionalised system here.
We are NOT giving new information. We are NOT showing them a better way of doing things.
Therefore when we complain or criticise we are NOT helping, we are merely showing that we DON'T understand the system at all. We are also in effect attempting to demonstrate our moral superiority (and with Iraq staring us in the face as an example of open and honest government systems - and NOT just the US response but other countries as well - we have no grounds to stand on) and this does not gain us any respect, kudos or influence.
No matter how bad your own system is, when pressured from outside you actually defend it. Works for anything from family to country. So by criticising, telling people this is not how it's done back home, how our system is so much better and more effective, we set ourselves up to be ignored, marginalised and dismissed.
If you have worked in change management then you will know that for any change to be effective it has to be embraced by those that it will effect the most, it has to involve those within the system. Effective change does not come from external force imposition. It does not come from "consultants" paid megabucks to tell corporations what to do and it definitely does not come from those considered 'fat cats' and fly-by-nighters i.e. FTs.
Change also needs to fit with the culture of the company, the same changes developed in one company will not work the same way in another company. They have to be tailored to fit. So imposing any external 'back home' way of doing things again will be ineffective. It has to be developed to fit the ethos here.
So we want to have an impact? Then it is through our work, our influence on the students. We have to be the change we want to happen.
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In addition to Sir Duke, Lotus Eater, IMHO writes some of the most intelligent, balanced, and thought-provoking posts found at the Saloon. I find myself cheering (albeit silently) as I read many of her posts. No exception here. I suppose what I struggle with is not so much about open criticism -- because yes, LE is absolutely right, the people of China know all about corruption more than we do – but how to live in China reasonably happily and harmoniously while staying true to myself and my own ethics. How to live and work effectively within a system and not participate in things that I find quite unethical or downright offensive?
I agree with LE very much that our primary focus should be (and always remain) on the students. In this regard, China has not been a disappointment to me. On the contrary, it is due to the diligence, warmth, and curiosity of a great many of my students that has kept me in China much longer than originally planned. As long as I am in the classroom, giving my best, and seeking new ways to illuminate and inspire, all is (mostly) well.
It’s what transpires outside the classroom that is the source of my confusion, frustration, and sometimes outrage at life here.
I agree with LE and Missi that we should never tell the people of China what they should do. I certainly don’t want anyone telling me how to live, what actions to take, etc. (at home, or abroad). But I also believe we must live by example, and I think I have made some small, positive effect with my students in this way as much as I have through English instruction.
For example, last year I was teaching in HeFei, Anhui. A group of about five students and I went shopping one weekend afternoon at the shiny new Carrefour in the center of the city. After we left the superstore, we took our place in line (queue) at the taxi stand.
First of all, I was thrilled to see that someone had actually planned and implemented a system for getting a taxi rather than letting everyone fend for themselves while loaded with shopping bags. Waiting in front of us was a young woman, holding her baby and her shopping bags. Her designated taxi approached and as she prepared herself, a middle-aged man seemed to appear from nowhere (he hadn’t been waiting with others in line) and tried to enter the taxi. I swiftly stepped forward and physically prevented him from seizing the taxi from the young mother.
At first, my students were rather taken aback by my actions, and so I explained to them why I had done what I had done. The next day, they kept talking about it in class as if I were some kind of hero. What I tried to explain is that most western people do not accept this type of behavior. I simply did what I thought was fair for this young mother who had waited for her rightful turn.
I think many of the problems I have regarding poor, rude, and aggressive public behavior in China comes from the fact that such actions are seen as normal, and therefore, we all must “bear it.” I disagree. I think we need to show an alternative to this behavior. My public behavior is extremely polite and I think most people appreciate it. I hope in time, others will mimic my behavior toward others. Who knows…?
LE is right that we must bring change through dedication and example, not lecturing. I happen to feel that this work is as vital and essential as our traditional instruction. They need to see and sometimes experience alternatives in thinking and action. Otherwise, how can we expect more positive change to occur?
I am not particularly thrilled to see the massive proliferation of McDonald’s in China. However, if I feel McD’s has brought a positive effect to China it is more within their employee training and management system. McD’s teaches its staff more courteous behavior towards clientele, more efficient productivity in food service, performance recognition, etc. I think that this is a far greater benefit to China than pushing chicken sandwiches and soft ice cream.
My students look to me for so many answers and alternatives. Like LE has mentioned in other threads, I too teach English AND critical thinking. In my mind, the second task is perhaps greater (and certainly more rewarding) than the first. Students look to us for so many answers and alternatives. Many times I find I am the very first teacher to ask them THEIR opinion about something. We must help them discover their own ways of helping China “develop” in a more positive way.
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I'd like to add that I think a fundamental reason I've had mostly wonderful relationships with my students (academic only!) is because when I first begin a new class, I tell them that I consider them to be MY teachers as well. At first hearing, many of them laugh nervously, but over time, they see this is true. I tell them that almost everything I have learned about China, Chinese culture, history, etc., has come from them. I remind them that everyone in the classroom has special knowledge and experience, and that each member of the class has unique ideas and opinions to bring to the discussion. As much as possible, I try to teach according to what THEY express or inquire about first.
My teaching of vocabulary, grammar, syntax, etc., often comes in response to something they express (or try to express). I make an effort to support and augment (and sometimes debate) their ideas and opinions with additional vocabulary, and alternative ways to express this idea. I try my utmost to guide students to become more active partners and collaborators in their learning. This method often brings lots of pleasant and sometimes provocative surprises and breaks the routine of mundane English language learning. I always prepare a lesson, but far more importantly, I try to keep the class as spontaneous as possible and let the class take on a life of its own. Hopefully, through example, I also teach them respect for their fellow classmates, and that when one is speaking, they are teaching all of us.
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It's a great issue for a debate: to be or not to be? Is it nobler in the mind to ignore the corruption around you, and quietly lead by example and most of all just TEACH?
Or do you fight the good fight? Good, brave people standing up and being counted is the main way things have ever changed for the better, throughout history. For evil to triumph...
I'll bet that Myers-Briggs test could speak volumes about the various ways folks approach this issue. Last year Raoul and I had to deal with this directly: the college we taught at had admitted students that were great at English, merely adequate, distinctly inadequate and incapable of any English beyond "Hallo", and lumped them in the same room.
A sleazebag teacher had instructed all students to buy New Concept English textbooks aaaaaaaaaa , despite the fact we didn't teach from them, probably to collect a kickback.
We were told that even if we failed the students, they would be back with the students that passed, i.e. there were no consequences to failing to work or learn. later the story changed and they claimed that students failing both semesters would have to repeat the year; I still suspect that was a big fat lie.
That sleazebag teacher started giving out our phone numbers to his students. He told our students to go up and knock on our fellow FT's door (she lived in rez) whenever they wanted something.
Raoul's approach was head-on: he got in people's faces about the inappropriate things he saw. Me, I was more diplomatic, sometimes discussing these things, sometimes proposing alternatives, sometimes putting up with crap in the name of Shut Up and Teach.
As the year wore on, Raoul was increasingly marginalized: everyone was afraid he'd say something... uncomfortable. He didn't want to go back for a second year, which is just as well, since he'd burned bridges.
On the other hand, most of the things he called them on changed, and when they didn't he made people uncomfortable. This being the inaugural year of the program, everything that took place set a major precedent for the faculty at that school; they have a chance to make it a fine program.
I picked far fewer battles. I'm a diplomat by nature, and tried the softpedal approach most of the time. I got my share of changes made too, by avoiding the whole Face thing. But I have to wonder how much of that would have worked without Bad Cop Raoul in the picture. I also have to wonder what would have gone down if I'd taken a tougher stance, more in unison with Raoul: would we have alienated everybody, or would we have gotten our way?
This is an extremely valuable thread: here we can discuss that line between misdemeanor and felony, venal and carnal sin, I'll-grumble-but-stand-for-it and I'm-walking-outoif-this-doesnt-change. A generally agreed upon standard would give folks something to steer by.
That doesn't just apply to quitting a job, but also to leaving China. I first visited China in 1987, and wanted to come back, but waited 15 years because of the Tiannenmen massacre. How terrible a thing would the government have to do before I in good conscience would have to leave?
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Thank you, Dr. Con. It took both of us to make what happened, happen...
For what it's worth, the administration of that school is working with me to find the next line of teachers. I think we both had the option to come back if we wanted. We didn't wanna...they moved this monster from way too far out north to, I dunno...somewhere in the middle of the East China Sea, I think. They run 3 submarines a day between the campus and a canal in east Suzhou.
(But ya gotta admit...property IS a lot cheaper out there. Many saves for big important school owner mans! bfbfbfbfbf)
Complaint is an absolutely essential ingredient in getting anything to change here. And it's gotta be in public...if you confine your concerns to a nice quiet back-room meeting, they will smile, agree, thank you for your input...and do nothing.
The entire rotten part of the system here is built upon the assumption that no one will have the guts to say anything. The Chinese simply don't have the freedom of action and the mobility that we enjoy; typically they WON'T say anything. That code of silence is a big part of the problem here. If no one says anything and no one complains (and if it isn't heard by more than just the school owner/director, it's exactly the same as no one complaining) then there will never be any reason for them to change the things the leaders find so terribly profitable and...convenient. These guys certainly aren't going to change voluntarily. Therefore things never will change.
Complain about the weasels. Praise the honest and effective ones to the skies. It's the closest thing to an input we have here. And sometimes it actually works.
Complaining may mean that you aren't asked to come back next year. And I'm very cool with that. If things at a place are rotten, and the only response is to try and bury dissent, do you really want to come back to that place? bibibibibi
I, for one, do not. Fix it or fuck it.
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The opposite side to complaint, cosy up and trade in guanxi, hasn't ever worked in any substantial way for me. I can't see how it really would anyway, unless you're the kind who can put enough energy into those kinds of relationships that the effect is focused and precise. (As if.) And complaint itself? I think you've got to have power for complaint to be meaningful, and then it's not complaint, it's direction. With me, specific complaint has a long history of being meaningless noise.
I think there are Chinese doing things. I think there are people in middle and upper management who are edging things along as much as feathering their own nests. They tend to be a bit slimy as people, but it is sometimes possible to be a part of what they're doing, usually at some payoff to them, but there you go anyway in China. There's one guy I know here who was schmoozing me tonight because he wants a western name on his research project, but that project's outcome is meant to be a comparative study of traditional versus communicative methods. Some classes will be getting a new style of teaching this semester. I suppose it's a pity this same guy is the one who had to move me out of the writing teacher position for a Chinese professor, and the writing classes are where the research will be done.
Dunno. Complaint has often seemed little more than frustrated noise because who to complain to has always been so unclear. Write off the rest of it to culture shock.
Now if you want to start complaining about specific features of the culture itself, then that I'm all for. (With the caveat that the complaint be in reality the growing pains of mutual understanding. I used to do that stuff left and right and still can be heard bemoaning certain kinds of things late into the night.)
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Are we talking about specific things that happen to us here or about 'the system' in general? If we are talking about a specific act that happened to us, then I think we are talking about different things. If we are talking about a timetable change 2 minutes before you are due to teach or a change in pay, then I think it is fine to make yourself heard. I still wouldn't take the scream, shout, throw things, stamp on the ground route because that isn't me and in general it means we lose incredible amount of face and give the people we do it to something to kill themselves laughing about later. And most of the time it's pretty ineffective. Generally I have found that negotiation skills, trying to find a way of understanding and having the bosses understand works pretty well. These situations I try to provide a solution - not just a complaint that they have to 'fix'.
If we are talking 'system' things - I agree with CP - complaints come across as culture shock whinges and seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding. And complaining loud and long will not remove the corruption from the system, will not stop the guanxi stuff, and will not enhance our ability to work better within the system.
I also find it interesting to speculate how different our own systems are. We can all name inefficient bosses and workplaces back home, we can all cite corrupt gov't practices, bureaucratic bungles, red tape etc, we can cry nepotism and 'jobs for the boys' when we don't get a job we apply for, we accept CEOs being given huge stock options and pay rises and 'goodbye' money to leave corporations they have stuffed up. I could go on and on.
Why do we find it so different here?
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This topic covers a lot of ground, obviously.
I can't imagine complaining about "the system" to a Chinese school administrator. That would be like the old "teaching a pig to sing" joke: it doesn't work and it annoys the pig.
I DO complain about things like students placed into my classes that speak no English and have no business being there. I complain about getting 153 students in a freshman Marketing class. I complain about having grades changed. I complain about having students who badly failed Principles of Management I summarily placed into Principles of Management II. And, oh, yes, I do complain about having my pay etc. changed.
It is quite possible to complain about these things without screaming and throwing things. I usually manage to make my case relatively calmly but firmly...but in front of multiple concerned parties. I absolutely do not in any way cooperate with weasel behavior.
However, if you try to cheat me on my pay, or alter a standing contract after the fact without my consent, when attempts to protest civilly and reasonably do not work you are going to have one ugly, angry, physically demonstrative laowai in your face.
Simply flying off the handle without trying to talk calmly first is pinhead behavior. But reasonable dialogue just doesn't always work in China.
Of course complaining won't eliminate all the problems. But it CAN help make it more difficult and uncomfortable to continue the dishonest practices.
Back home, if you can prove wrongdoing, you can complain and have some hope of getting it fixed. In China, few complain and little is done about it. It IS different here. I don't just quietly accept weaseltry back home, either...certainly not when I have a verifiable case.
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The corruption you know is controllable; chinese style corruption is different than Calgary-style. And it's not playing the crooked game that matters, but predicting what will work and how.
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The corruption you know is controllable; chinese style corruption is different than Calgary-style. And it's not playing the crooked game that matters, but predicting what will work and how.
I think you have hit it on the head. The Chinese KNOW their form of corruption, and feel it is controllable - they can predict what will and won't work.
We are not familiar with this type and so can't predict. And so we feel it is something we can't control. So - it's alien, we want it to be familiar because otherwise we are behind the 8-ball. So we criticise.
Back home, if you can prove wrongdoing, you can complain and have some hope of getting it fixed.
That depends. I'm sure that the proved wrong doing of government doesn't get fixed back home (rigged elections, inaccurate WMD reports, big contracts going to mates etc), wrong-doing in big business has to go through a huge and expensive court process (toxic waste dumping, WPHS, environmental damage etc etc). And this is just the overt stuff - not the covert - jobs not being given to the best qualified, but to friends/family, illegal migrant workers being paid less, the marginalised being imprisoned more frequently for minor crimes - the list goes on and on.
Our own system can be as corrupt, we tend to think the justice system will protect us - but unless you have power and wealth it can be a very one-sided justice system. We tend to think that government institutions will care for us - but again, ask the welfare recipients if they have had to jump through a million hoops and still sometimes with no outcome. We believe that our IR laws will protect us - but in almost every country the protections in the IR laws are being rolled back to enable businesses to 'compete' - ie lower their HR costs - at the expense of the people with no power - the workers.
We complain - but ... no changes.
The corruption in our countries seems more acceptable because we grew up with it, here the change in style (if not content) throws us.
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Do we have corruption in America? You bet.
But I think that’s where the comparison ends.
What separates most westerners (I think) from many people in China are the attitudes towards corruption.
Back home, if corruption is uncovered, the majority of people feel it must be addressed and eliminated. So often in China, the attitude seems to run along the lines of: “Yeah, but what can we do? We must accept it. It part of the way we do things here.”
The ‘system’ (in its present form) which is being discussed in various threads here – be it educational, government, or social – seems to be serving those “at the top” very well. Why should they push for reform as long as it keeps them soaring above the multitudes? In the U.S., the people of lower socio-economic standing will cry out against the fat cats and attempt to expose what going on and happening to them – as much as possible.
In China we often hear: “I dare not” (uttered in a number of situations). I truly understand that feeling and respect anyone’s need to protect them selves. As foreigners, we have a chance to speak out about some of the things we see and experience here. We have to be sensible (and sensitive) about it, but I know a number of my students and friends admire this attitude from me, and most foreigners. They see attitude reflected in western movies, and so they expect to see in us as well.
As I’ve said before, we cannot and should not lecture people here on how to live, but we also must not surrender our core values just because we live in a place so contaminated by cheating and corruption. It doesn’t take long for the corruption to smack us “upside the head” directly, so we might as well confront it head on when it does.
Lotus Eater, in previous threads I seem to recall that you’ve mentioned teaching higher-than-average-level students in China, in more advanced courses, yes? If so, then I must assume a significant number of your students must also be preparing for study abroad. Am I right? If so, how do you teach, prepare and warn them about plagiarism? As educators, we know how potentially serious an act of plagiarism can be in our home countries. It can bring academic careers to a screeching halt and send students packing.
In my attempts to inform and instruct rules, policies, and practices regarding plagiarism here, again, I find that most students have little or no regard for this matter. For so many years, they have functioned in an atmosphere of “anything goes” for academic “achievement,” and when that fails, bring out the bribery to solve the problem. No one has ever told them, pointedly, that grabbing essays off the internet, direct copying from scholarly or popular texts, is simply NOT acceptable.
In my limited investigation here, I have found no evidence of Chinese university instructors teaching – or even mentioning – anything with regards to plagiarism.
We have so many alternative approaches and standards to teach here – through example – and I think we don’t help anyone (students, friends, ourselves) by telling ourselves that corruption here is not much different than corruption back home.
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Ahh... birddog - I'm not so sanguine about our ability to tackle corruption head on in the west. Was John Howard removed from office for lying about the 'children overboard' affair - no. What happened re the election rigging in the US after the last 2 presidential elections? How much power and control do lobbyists (representing big business, big lobby groups) have compared to those fighting for legislation for the good of the people? How much contrary information really gets published in our media?
We like to think we can do something about the corruption - but in effect not a lot happens. Gov't ministers will sacrifice a couple of senior staff, the Premier might make an example of a minister - for a short period, and life goes on. Big business still gets away with bad and corrupt practice - and if they do get hassled they merely move off-shore and local people lose jobs. An incentive to sit down and shut up if ever there was.
We have whistle-blower protection legislation - why - because those who sought to make complaints were threatened, harassed and usually lost positions etc. We have sexual harassment legislation - but it is used way less frequently than the number of instances would warrant - why, because the emotional cost to the individual, the work related costs to the department etc subtly encourage people not to use it - and then if it is used, it is on a permanent record for both the harasser and harassed - who is then seen as a potential trouble maker. Not a good career move. And that is in gov't which in Oz has been seen as the lead agent in 'good' work practices!! Most women will 'grin and bear it' - much the same attitude as the Chinese.
We do make SOME moves towards anti-corruption practices - but so do the Chinese. People make complaints at home - and they also do so here. Civil unrest is actually way more wide-spread that China Daily or CCTV 9 would have us believe! And most of the unrest is protest against corrupt local government practices. WE don't see it, Gov't controls the media, so we rarely hear about it - but it's there.
As for plagiarism - HELL YES!! I fail every paper from mid-semester 1st year on that is plagiarised. I teach my classes HOW to research, acknowledge, cite, etc etc etc. I have students who are already studying overseas and are successfully completing their programs. They know and I enforce.
And they do know - without me telling them, that it is wrong. I have had Chinese teachers come to me in disgust telling me about a professor who published a paper in Chinese that he had found on the internet and merely translated and called it his own. They see this as WRONG. We have signs all round the campus at exam time talking about honesty in exams. Changes are happening.
We are pretty insulated here, we hear very little of what is really happening in China, tiny bits from overseas - nothing really about what is truly happening on the ground. I don't think we can say that nothing is changing. More open talk is occurring about the Cultural Revolution, more things are being said about corruption.
It's happening.
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As always, LE, thanks for your astute comments and observations!
Your points regarding corruption back home are well taken.
Congratulations on the strides you've been making with your students regarding plagiarism! Your rigorous standards are likely playing an importnat role in their overseas academic success. Brava!
Perhaps the most important thing that is emrging here is the increased level of dialogue between FTs and students. While I've not personally witnessed similar advancements in attitudes toward cheating on the part of schools where I have been employed, I have found that students are indeed eager to discuss issues and effects regarding corruption, plagiarism, and cheating.
What's crucial is that we create a safe (as much as possible) and supportive and non-judgmental (as much as possible) classroom environment for these discussions to transpire. I have always agreed with you that students are far more aware of these problems than we sometimes believe. They need proper outlets and forums to vent, explore, and debate their feelings about what is going on around them. We owe it them to be good facilitators.
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Riiiiight. Just play along, because things aren't perfect in our homes, either.
aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa
Maybe you haven't seen some of the scams I have seen in China?
Anyway, I'm gonna leave this thread to ya.
But I just don't buy that complaining won't change anything. Not buying it, because I've seen it happen too many times.
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My Chinese friends complain bitterly about corruption but never to anyone in authority. There's fear. Not a Party member.... forget about it!
I do seem to recall a bunch of Chinese getting together to protest, amoung other things, corruption in government. Happened in 1989 in some big-ass square in Beijing. Ask someone under 30 about about it. If they have even heard about it they won't know anything about what happened, why and the result.
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Nope, they won't. I had a student, one of the brightest I encountered in China, who had investigated that little turbulent affair in 1989. She said that her father, who apparently was some kind of civil servant, adamantly swore that in 1989 nothing happened and everyone was happy!
The problem with corruption in China is that it permeates every strata of society, from the bottom to the highest echelons, it is quite lucrative and gives some people a lot of power, which would mean that it will be difficult for anyone to rally support for abolishing and fighting corruption. Sad but fact.
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Protests are growing in both numbers, frequency and violence in the last few years. And there is a trend to more organised protests as well.
This policy of enforced silence has come to define the central government’s approach to widespread rural unrest, China’s most salient domestic issue. Fearing that news of land disputes and other civil discontent could fuel a united threat to its authority, the Communist Party government has undertaken one of the biggest media crackdowns since the aftermath of the 1989 T2 pro-democracy demonstrations.
"Mass incidents” is the term the Chinese government uses to describe demonstrations, riots, and group petitioning. In January 2006, the Ministry of Public Security announced that there were 87,000 such incidents in 2005, a 6.6 percent increase over the previous year. Protests over corruption, taxes, and environmental degradation caused by China’s breakneck economic development contributed to the rise.
Just because WE don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening!!
And as a percentage of the population - how does that level of protest stack up against the western countries?
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Some news
(CNN) -- Eleven public officials were arrested in New Jersey as part of a corruption investigation, the U.S. attorney's office announced Thursday.
State Assemblymen Mims Hackett Jr. and Alfred E. Steele -- both Democrats -- and Passaic Mayor Samuel Rivera are among those arrested, a source in the U.S. attorney's office said.
Also arrested were the chief of staff to the Newark City Council president, two Passaic City Councilmen and five Pleasantville school board members, the source said.
The Star-Ledger in Newark, New Jersey, citing sources close to the investigation, reported that the officials were arrested on bribery charges pertaining to roofing and insurance contracts.
The 18-month investigation, which included undercover operations and secret recordings, focused on officials in Passaic, Essex and Atlantic counties, sources told the newspaper.
The probe targeted school board members, state lawmakers, mayors and city officials, the sources said, according to The Star-Ledger.
U.S. Attorney Christopher J. Christie and FBI agent Weysan Dun are expected to announce the charges and provide details at a 3:30 p.m. news conference in front of the federal courthouse in Trenton.
Those arrested will begin making appearances before a judge at 2 p.m. Thursday.
The names of those arrested are expected to be released before noon.
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Great topic
I don't think the Chinese are as weak and unaware as you may think. Maybe not as pro active but that is understandable given the restraints on open government.
My Chinese daughter in law had us in stiches the other night giving us a hypothetical. If Chairman Mao wanted to start a revolution and all the red tape the bribery he would have to pay.
Last month my son and daughter in law bought a digital camera from a famous name store. There was a problem with the camers and they returned it to the store, the customer service ws terrible. After 10 days they picked up the camera but it had even worse problems.
So they decided to forget talking to these people and made a placard in Chinese denouncing the store. The sales staff called security and they said we will call the police.
They backed down they really did not know how to deal with this. They got their money back.
If you read the Chinese forums you will get a lot more insight into what is really going on. I can't read Chinese but my daughter in law gives me a lot of info.
Lotus you are right I went out for dinner tonight with some students from the hospital and even when I was comparing our different countries I tried to tone it down, you know our medical system is better than yours type of thing.
I felt uncomfotable, in that I may be insulting them so I switched the topic to enemas. We had finished eating at this stage
You know as you do, enemnas down through the ages and the use and beliefs of this practice from Priness Diana down to the Mayans in South America.
Serious teachers out there, it is a great topic. I digress
Well said LE and Missi and that lovely man that agreed with you both
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Hmmm... criticism, complaining.. I don't really like the word 'complaining'. It sounds too much like 'nagging' to me. One of my students said in her speach to the freshmen: If you don't like it, change it. If you can't change it, change yourself'. I thought it was a little bit corny, but I have to agree with her.
Plagiarism and cheating; who are we kidding? That happens just as much in the west as it happens here. I tell my students what a teacher told me once: Every form of cheating is bad and it is risky. If I catch you cheating, your mark will be a 1 and in your business career consequences will be worse. However, if you can cheat without me catching you, then go right ahead. Maybe you're not good at this exam, but you're good at something else and the world is in need of a wide variety of talents.
As for personal 'problems', like necessary purched household items the school doesn't want to reimburse, schedule changes and things like that, I always dress my 'complaints' in a relaxed atmosphere, a calm voice and a smile (and persistance). This always works for me.
What surprised me when I first came to China, was "Why the f*** don't the Chinese compain about their situation?" The education system, the corruption, the media, the government.. -I think we can all agree that countries in the west are just as corrupt, China has just perfected the art of corruption-. I used to think to myself, why do students put up with the crap they're being taught? Why don't farmers revolt and insist on a better life? Why do the Chinese put up with this government? (and why does it seem that no one here has an opinion of their own?)
I have come to realise though, that it's not that simple. You are basically a product of your environment and in China that environment is one of no own opinion, no critical thinking and "we have no choice". People just don't know any better. And besides, this system just doesn't have freedom of speech yet. Complain about your job and for you thousands of other Chinese. Complain a little more or about controversial topics and you 'disappear'. There's not much you can do as a Chinese. I (and probably most of us), would rather have a nation of critical thinkers; creative individuals; people who think for themselves. But I also think that -at this point in time- that wouldn't work out very well in a nation like China.
I don't remember who I had this discussion with, but I was thinking out loud 'why not put some heavy machinery into Chinese agriculture to make it vastly more efficient and so that farmers won't have to do this hard and outdated manual labour anymore?'. His/her (sorry, I really can't remember who) reply was: 'because that would put millions of farmers out of work and there are no substitute jobs for them'. I hadn't thought of that, but my guess is that the Chinese government has must have hundreds of moral dillema's like this one.
As for the -western ways are good, Chinese ways are bad-: of course being the arrogant, lecturing foreigner doesn't help and of course it's not that black and white. But... of the two most prosperous cities in China, one is a former British colony (Hongkong) and the other has been partly under foreign rule for a long time as well (Shanghai). So the two richest cities in China are not really Chinese... I think that China can definately benifit from doing things more in a western way.
Our purpose here is not to 'save China and preach the gospel of westernism', but it IS to make the world a better place (at least I'd like to think so. I'm not here solely for my own good). We teachers are not in a position of obvious power, but as some of you have pointed out before me we can do something.
I try to inject as much life lessons, morality, and 'open your mind' into my lessons as I can. But we teach just as much subconsciously and consciously. I received a touching email from one of my students (who wasn't even in one of my classes) that he and his friends learned much more from me than just English. Things I take for granted like open mindedness, a positive look on life, the will to learn and the importance of humor.
This made me realise that we can, should and do teach more than just a language.
I think that through morals and our ways of and views on life, we can change these students' lives and ultimately China, for the better. After all, through our students we touch the future. We don't have to complain about China, we're already changing it.
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Interesting post Dutch guy,
I often refer to the differences between Hong Kong and mainland China with my students. One of my favourite students is a judge and he hates the government and wants to retire in Canada. He is very well off. I don't know if he takes bribes. His heart is not in China, to make change, he sees his job as just a job, like a factory worker on an assembly line.
I am only teaching English and if the topic is about politics and whatever, I switch off. I hate my government and their policies most of all siding with Bush. In Chi
na I am just an observer
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China sets up anti-corruption bureau
The Associated Press
September 6, 2007
China has created its first agency to combat corruption, a rampant problem that the country's communist leadership has said is a threat to their rule, state media reported Thursday.
The establishment of the National Corruption Prevention Bureau by the State Council, China's Cabinet, comes as party leaders prepare for a major meeting next month to renew President Hu Jintao's mandate and set policy for the next five years.
Ma Wen, the newly appointed Minister of Supervision, was appointed head of the anti-corruption bureau, the official Xinhua News Agency said.
The report did not say how the bureau would function, or whether it would play a role in disciplining corrupt officials. The officials are usually punished by the Communist Party, which has disciplinary commissions at the national and local levels.
More than 97,200 officials were disciplined last year, Xinhua said, citing the party's Central Commission for Discipline Inspection. A vast majority of them failed to carry out their duties, took bribes or violated party financial rules.
Recent corruption cases included that of Zheng Xiaoyu, the former head of the State Food and Drug Administration. He was executed in July for taking bribes to approve substandard medicines, including an antibiotic that killed at least 10 people.
Another case involved Chen Liangyu, the former party boss of Shanghai, who was kicked out of the Communist Party and removed from all government positions. He was accused in a scandal in which $400 million in pension funds was improperly invested. He also was branded "morally decadent" and a philanderer.
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Ma Wen, the newly appointed Minister of Supervision, was appointed head of the anti-corruption bureau, the official Xinhua News Agency said.
I wonder how many strings old Ma had to pull to get that plum of a job. afafafafaf
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Just a quick note on what LE talks about with regards to change. Read the book, The Hero's Journey (by Moffet and Brown). It's a small book. Now back to reading the rest of this thread. Oh, by the way, for a few years, it was my job to navigate culture change in a few schools as the school principal. Change is difficult and extremely messy.
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Change is difficult and extremely messy.
And the vast majority of people don't want it and will fight against it tooth and nail....despite what they may say to the contrary, they have to be dragged along kicking and screaming!!
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This is only partially related, but from my blog today:
An article in the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/business/worldbusiness/11security.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) and the IHT today discusses American investment in Chinese companies developing sophisticated surveillance equipment. Because the companies do their technology development in China they're exempt from US export controls, but they're still welcome to take funding from US investors and hedge funds. So, with a $110 million loan from the Citadel group, a Chinese company called China Security and Surveillance Technology is buying up all of its competitors, celebrating each acquisition with a banquet for potential acquisitions and public officials. From the article.
“When they come, they hear central government officials endorsing us, they hear bankers endorsing us or supporting us, it gives us credibility,” Mr. Yap said. “It’s a lot of drinking, it’s like a wedding banquet.”
While that's a very Chinese way of doing business, the idea of one company buying out all of its competition with money it receives from the US, all the while cozying up to the Chinese government and in effect bribing its remaining competitors, is sickening and scary. In fact the Minister of Public Security is now director of the company, meaning the number of degrees of separation between the US investors and the Chinese government is frighteningly small. China just passed a law restricting monopolies (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cef60ce0-5713-11dc-9a3a-0000779fd2ac.html), and The China Daily recently condemned monopolies (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2007-09/05/content_6081442.htm) as bad for the nation, calling them the major obstacle in the promotion of social interests. I don't know the full story behind this company, but a government minister is in control, the company is consolidating the industry, the competition's bosses are being wined and dined, and unrestricted money is flowing in from Wall Street.
The equipment China Security and Surveillance Technology develops is ostensibly for public safety and crime reduction. Surveillance companies in China point out that the UK has a more sophisticated and extensive camera network already in place, and Manhattan is setting up a similar system, so they argue that we're in no location to criticize. Representative Tom Lantos, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, argues that surveillance in China is not the same as surveillance in the West, as China is a one-party state with little to check its actions. Mr. Lantos also plans to investigate “the cooperation of American companies in the Chinese police state.”
I don't like China's government, and I don't like its restrictions on its people, but I'm simply appalled by the idea of Americans directly supporting its worst characteristics. Institutions like the NYT are good at getting attention, though, for example when the UAE wanted to buy a controlling interest in our ports. Hopefully I'm not the only member of the American public who feels this way, and the attention will lead to support for Mr. Lantos and his investigation.
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Criticizing the way things are done in China is one issue, but I think that we from the West can definitely criticize our own countrymen when they perpetuate or encourage what we see as problems here.
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One of my post-grads has just returned from a national speech competition in Beijing. It was a Chinese speech competition (ie spoken in Chinese, therefore judged only by Chinese judges). The topic was 'What makes a good teacher?"
She spoke of teachers only wanting reputation, so plagiarising papers from overseas, how bad this was and how disrespected those teachers caught doing it were by the student body. What outcome? She won 3rd place.
One of my Chinese teacher mates today told me how he hands back papers that have unattributed work in them to his students to re-do, another one told me she told her class that the minute they copied something it was completely obvious, and so not to do it.
Times they are achanging.
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It's called the Lorenz Effect. As we are present in the lives of our students in China (or elsewhere) we create small ripples of change, ripples that we aren't often aware of ... And so the world changes ... It is more than criticising, it is about what we do that gives weight to our words. Negative criticism destroys, burns bridges. Constructive dialogue builds bridges which provide avenues for positive change.
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The difference we make is mostly with our students. With them we can have an impact. But I don't believe we make too much difference with administration - that difference cones down from on high.
The Chinese Education Ministry knows that much of the world does not trust it's qualifications and is therefore beginning to play the 'fix-it' game. The Chinese Gov't is offering scholarships for foreign students to study here (subjects other than Chinese), and to gain those students they need to be able to say 'we offer quality education'.
But our students see us weekly, they watch us, they compare with their other teachers and depending on their comfort zone, they take in how we teach, how we act etc.