Raoul's China Saloon (V5.0) Beta
The Bar Room => The BS-Wrestling Pit => Topic started by: Magnus1977 on January 16, 2010, 08:37:14 AM
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I wanted to see what the community said about this.
While we were living in the States my (Chinese) wife witnessed while at work in the break room this kid who would buy chips and a soda everyday from the vending machine. She talked with her friends and found out that he lives with his grandparents but that is all she found out.
She came home so livid about this and started spouting out Chinese a mile a minute. I found the story on her Kaixin wang account about this story where she expressed her opinions about this.
The long and short of it is... she is convinced that American parents are cold blooded. How could they not provide for their children. How could they not do the small thing like sending a meal with their child.
This boy's health is the most important thing and eating chips and soda everyday will only negatively affect him.
She seemed to take it almost personally. Some of her colleagues and friends on Kaixin wang mentioned that "American kids are more independent" and how "our cultural background is just different." and "when your son is 18 years old you won't do this!"
Just wanted to know what everyone's thoughts were about this.
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While we were living in the States my (Chinese) wife witnessed while at work in the break room this kid who would buy chips and a soda everyday from the vending machine. She talked with her friends and found out that he lives with his grandparents but that is all she found out.
But, that is exactly what happens in China! bibibibibi
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American (and I suspect most other Western) kids eat a lot of empty crap but still manage to grow up large (sometimes much TOO large) and strong. The kid probably gets at least 2 solid meals a day from Grandma at home, so opting for chips and soda for lunch is not going to cause brain damage or some such.
Besides, I'm hearing her seeing the kid BUYING the crap, but not EATING it. He may be buying those things just to round out a lovely sandwich or some such from home.
The Chinese believe a lot of strange nonsense about nutrition. She needs to lighten up. ahahahahah
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I love the cultural variance. She considers the American parents "cold-blooded" for not ensuring their adult child eats properly. (What would she say about "tough love"?). And Americans would probably look at how this Chinese woman treats her children and call her an "enabler". Each system can probably work as well as the other, but they are completely at odds with eachother. One accents the individual and the other emphasizes the group/family.
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Good luck trying to get an American kid to 'brown bag it'. (That means carry your lunch from home, usually in a brown paper bag.) My kids stopped taking lunch from home about the time they hit middle school. It just wasn't cool. Nevermind the family financial situation or the healthiness of the food available in the cafeteria.
When my kids were young, I had some control over what they ate. I was probably the meanest mom on the block. They got sugar-cereal only on Saturday mornings. I didn't want to hype them up on sugar before they went to school and whole grain cereals are much healthier. They got soft drinks once a week - Saturdays for lunch - and on a few other very special occasions, such as birthday parties. Once they got out into the big bad world by themselves (ie lunch at middle or high school, or parttime jobs) I had much less - ok, no - control over the choices they made. Now that they're adults, they make better food choices than my husband and I do.
It seems that the 'child?' in question has money to spend. It's possible the parents or grandparents ARE providing for his meal, by sending cash, and he's choosing to spend it on unhealthy food.
Kudos to your wife for caring. You might want to point out to her that this is one person, she doesn't have all the facts, and, while there are undoubtedly some cold-blooded American parents, not all are.
Let's generalize in another direction. I'll postulate that all Chinese parents are cold-blooded and neglectful because I saw a baby (toddler, barely able to walk) digging in the dirt around a tree, right on the side of the road, with an exacto knife aoaoaoaoao No adult near enough to intervene if he had run into the street or slipped with the exposed blade aiming at his tender little flesh. Tell your wife that story and ask if it means all Chinese people don't care about their kids.
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Yeah, taking a packed lunch to school (I am assuming this was a school?) would be very uncool in the UK after a certain age. It's a weird time with a lot of peer pressure.
I got money every week and usually spent it on a fairly decent lunch, cos I was a good boy (and liked my food), but some of my friends would consistently choose to spend their entire lunch money on crap (candy, cakes, soda) (and presumably lie to parents about what they ate).
Oh, I just remembered, other friends would eat nothing so they could save up their lunch money for cigarettes, booze or other wicked products. Ah, school days!
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After yet another outcry from our PTA about students going to school without food I surveyed our students.
The basic findings were:
- all students had something to eat before leaving for school
all students were given food to take to school for lunch
most students ate their 'lunch' while waiting for the school bus
at lunch time they bought 'rubbish' food from the canteen if they had money, or 'cadged' from friends
they did not think there was a problem
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Australia is pretty different yet again. We tend to have canteens (called 'tuckshops') where you stand in line but they're not in an actual building with masses of tables to sit down. More like demountables or hole in the walls and you tend to sit on whatever seating is available around the school. And actually, most DO take their lunches to school, right through to the end. It's fairly common to have 1 treat day a week though- I remember in primary school my mother would treat me on Fridays to a sandwich or meat pie and a choclate Billabong for dessert (milk based icypole). In high school I just bought whatever with pocketmoney, but usually a hot chicken and mayo roll my tuckshop was famous for! Also in year 12 one of my classmates would only bring rabbit food (carrot and calery sticks) everyday, so we'd all chip in to force feed her!
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Funny, my wife complains about American and Chinese ways of raising kids (though she thinks my parents did a fine job).
My second year in China I saw a girl (couldn't have been older than 5) playing with a lighter and some dry leaves while the group of grandparents played cards.
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This isn't exctly on topic because the parents weren't there but, whilst working on the summer camp last summer, we spend a delightful kkkkkkkkkk Saturday at a LongAn farm. Th Chinese boss wanted the kids to make a stick picture using what they could find on the farm. Great idea. However, he then started handing out box cutters to 9 year olds. Initially, I didn't say anything. Then a kid was pretending to slit his friend's throat. At that point, I had to confiscate all the box cutters, whilst the Chinese staff just stood by.
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Only 1% of primary schoolchildren's packed lunches meet the nutritional standards set for school meals in England, a study suggests.
Crisps, sweets, and sugary drinks still dominate over fruit and veg despite the government's drive to make lunchboxes healthier, the Leeds-based team says
It has also been reported that the number of students eating meals provided in school canteens (which now have to meet nutritional guidelines) is dropping.
Some things never change!
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I think we've strayed a little from the situation Magnus described in his OP. My fault for bringing school lunches into it. The way I read it is the situation was a break room at a workplace. Being the US, the 'kid' in question is presumably 16 or older, if he was Mrs. Magnus' coworker.
What irked me about the topic is the generalizing to the entire population based on one kid's behavior. This is a little bit of a sore spot with me, because it keeps coming up. There's a sense that I don't love my family or care about them because I've left them to come to China. I do hear again and again how American parents stop supporting their kids when they turn 18 and we abandon our elderly parents to the horrors of nursing homes. That's part of the picture, but by no means an accurate or complete one.
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I think we've strayed a little from the situation Magnus described in his OP. My fault for bringing school lunches into it. The way I read it is the situation was a break room at a workplace. Being the US, the 'kid' in question is presumably 16 or older, if he was Mrs. Magnus' coworker.
What irked me about the topic is the generalizing to the entire population based on one kid's behavior. This is a little bit of a sore spot with me, because it keeps coming up. There's a sense that I don't love my family or care about them because I've left them to come to China. I do hear again and again how American parents stop supporting their kids when they turn 18 and we abandon our elderly parents to the horrors of nursing homes. That's part of the picture, but by no means an accurate or complete one.
I have heard the above said so many times Ruth, and then how Western kids are so much more independent, where independent is said like it is dirty word, or the thing about old people. The whole "Chinese people care more for their families" thing bugs me too, because it just isn't true. We may express our love in different ways appropriate to our own cultures, but the result is the same. Chinese people do not love their families any more than we do, obviously.
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I strongly agree...we Westerners love our families at least as much as anyone else.
But I do think that Chinese are more subservient to their families. Perfectly reasonable and intelligent Chinese adults allow their families to select their careers, their spouses, and other such major life decisions, that few if any Westerners would allow their families to meddle in. I've seen it happen many times myself, and I find it not a little sickening and impossible to really explain. bibibibibi
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I think the problem here is the broad generalisation about western parents based on the nutritional choices of one person old enough to hold down a job. kkkkkkkkkk
During a recent debate a student stood up and said the whole 'westerners just care about money' thing.
Have you ever been to a western country? No. Have you ever left Henan Province? No. Is your primary source of information American movies? Yes.
THEN SHUT UP! asasasasas
(not that there is anything wrong with American movies, but they don't even represent the movies of all western countries, let alone culture)
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The independence thing is a little off too. I know a gal who's lived apart from her parents since 7th grade. Parents work in Beijing. Kid's hukou (did I get that right? Residence thing...) was for the small town I worked in in Liaoning. They would have had to pay for her to go to school in BJ and this isn't a family with money. When I met her she was 16 and had been on her own for 3 years. Living in a dorm isn't exactly being on your own, but kids who do so handle hand washing their own clothes and managing their monthly allowance without much parental input. The once-monthly visits home most kids in the senior middle school get weren't happening for this kid. Emotional support via telephone is not the same as sitting around the dinner table together as a family each evening. THAT's what I gave my kids at the same age.
Currently I tutor 2 girls in 9th grade. They only go home on the weekends. I see dormitory life as cold blooded, especially for kids who are only 12 years old. I see going to school 6 1/2 days a week from 7:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. as cold blooded.
Last year I did a stint in a private primary school. One of the three grade 1 classes were so much more impossible to teach than the others. I found out part way through the semester that the kids in that class lived at the school. Six year olds with no parental contact. Who loves them? Who snuggles them into bed each night and reads stories to them? Who teaches them to bake cookies standing on a stool next to Mommy working at the counter? Who makes them feel important as they learn to set the table? Dorm life for these kids is cold blooded in my opinion.
Different points of view from different cultures.
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This is slightly off-base from the original post, so I apologize. But regarding the independence thing and the thing about not taking care of elders. China's social welfare system is not well-developed compared to the west. Parents see kids as an investment, because how else are said parents going to be taken care of in old age? The parents will go to great sacrifice, financial and otherwise, so that the kids can go to good schools and to university. There isn't much of this student-loan stuff, that I'm aware of.
When the kids grow up, they are willing to take care of their parents for these reasons:
-the guilt factor: "My parents sacrificed so much so that I could be where I am today ..."
-there is no one else to do it.
-intergenerational transfer of wealth is extremely efficient and important in China. In other words, parents are willing to use their life savings to fund adult kids' down payments for houses. (You didn't think they were doing it themselves on 2,500 RMB a month, did you?) An inheritance may also be in the picture.
China does have a few nursing homes. The option is not as popular as in the West. But that's not because the Chinese love their parents more. For one thing, in the U.S., nursing homes tend to be paid for by Medicaid -- that is, the government.* In China, I suspect that all or nearly all nursing home care is paid for directly out-of-pocket. Chinese families don't go for that, because that is money that could better be spent for a house, for kids' college tuition, for a car, etc.
In short, I believe that if the government were picking up the tab, many more elderly Chinese would be staying in nursing homes. In fact, if such a policy were enacted, I suspect that all nursing homes would be overflowing, and with humongous waiting lists!
*In the U.S., some people do have their money and their house taken by nursing homes or Medicaid, but others get around it by putting their assets into their children's names long before nursing home care is needed.
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The independence thing is a little off too. I know a gal who's lived apart from her parents since 7th grade. Parents work in Beijing. Kid's hukou (did I get that right? Residence thing...) was for the small town I worked in in Liaoning. They would have had to pay for her to go to school in BJ and this isn't a family with money. When I met her she was 16 and had been on her own for 3 years. Living in a dorm isn't exactly being on your own, but kids who do so handle hand washing their own clothes and managing their monthly allowance without much parental input. The once-monthly visits home most kids in the senior middle school get weren't happening for this kid. Emotional support via telephone is not the same as sitting around the dinner table together as a family each evening. THAT's what I gave my kids at the same age.
Currently I tutor 2 girls in 9th grade. They only go home on the weekends. I see dormitory life as cold blooded, especially for kids who are only 12 years old. I see going to school 6 1/2 days a week from 7:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. as cold blooded.
Last year I did a stint in a private primary school. One of the three grade 1 classes were so much more impossible to teach than the others. I found out part way through the semester that the kids in that class lived at the school. Six year olds with no parental contact. Who loves them? Who snuggles them into bed each night and reads stories to them? Who teaches them to bake cookies standing on a stool next to Mommy working at the counter? Who makes them feel important as they learn to set the table? Dorm life for these kids is cold blooded in my opinion.
Different points of view from different cultures.
AMEN Ruth! My school has boarding starting at freaking kindergarten, and mandatory boarding at 1st grade. When I'm feeling uncharitable, I want to ask why these people even had children if they were just going to leave them to grow up in dorms raised by their teachers. Not that there aren't valid reasons why, but the entire school, a really expensive private school, is comprised of students boarding there from age five on. I see these kids crying at the gate on Mondays when the parents, who are almost all local to Beijing, drop them off at the school for the week. It just makes me sad.
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I often feel that the 'family closeness' thing is the most incredible myth here.
Case 1: Teacher here has two homes - 15 minutes apart. She and her husband live in the fancy apartment off campus. His parents live in the less fancy one on campus - with teacher's 5 year old son. She sees him at dinner time and then she and her husband go home. These holidays she travelled in Sth Asia, with friends. Her teaching hours aren't so onerous that she couldn't care for her child herself. But...
Case 2: Friend runs a business with his wife in the business. He spends most of his time in Wuxi, she is here in Xi'an. Their baby is looked after by grandparents elsewhere. He sees the child at most two or three times a year. Because he has a Singaporean passport he qualifies as 'foreign' and is planning on having another child. Why? He doesn't see this one and she was so important to him that he didn't bother to tell me that she had been born (we were both in Beijing at the time it happened - another friend told me!).
Case 3: Friend and his wife have a daughter. Friend spent the 1st 4 years of her life in Germany, returned, his wife left almost immediately for the US to study for 12 months, returned for one year and is now in Canada and doesn't want to return. Friend says he will send the daughter (who is being cared for by grandparents) to Canada to his wife can look after her.
So many of my students have told me that from a very young age they have only seen their parents at for a few days at Spring Festival.
It seems to me that many Chinese families see earning money to eventually pass on to your child is love.
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'family closeness' thing is the most incredible myth here.
I totally agree with Lotus Eater.
So many parents here:
- have handed over their role to grandparents or boarding school
- use the excuse of job/further education to allow them to carry on with life as they like it (money, dinners, entertainment, other relationships)
Other parents:
- do not seem to realise that in the drive to ensure their children have everything they are sacrificing the one thing children generally desire ... a parent at home
While there are some really caring parents out there I often wonder why the majority bothered to have children. Then I think of a possible answer - to have someone who 'can look after me when I get old'. It is another example of the "I/me/mine" philosophy of the real China.
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It seems to me that many Chinese families see earning money to eventually pass on to your child is love.
And a retirement plan!
Your child will get fabulously educated, then march out and make a ton of money, and be your support in your old age. bfbfbfbfbf
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I agree that that is the general expectation - now. But with young people moving to Shenzhen, Shanghai, Beijing etc, for work, or overseas, then I think in the future this may change.
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Yep, it might in the future. mmmmmmmmmm
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We're only beginning to see it, but looking at the uni and college grads I know, I think it is changing already. The parents who've put their kids on the treadmill young may be the last to see it, but Harry Chapin's Cats in the Cradle is one song all my students have understood.
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Yes - the iron rice bowl has disappeared, replaced with the 'adult child' rice bowl, which will rapidly disappear.
The elderly are only going to see their children occasionally, only going to get the occasional shot of money coming into their pockets. Particularly as the cost of living rises in the major cities, rents/housing prices increase - the young won't be able to afford to look after the old - especially two sets of them.
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But relevance to right now: virtually nil. kkkkkkkkkk
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We're only beginning to see it, but looking at the uni and college grads I know, I think it is changing already. The parents who've put their kids on the treadmill young may be the last to see it, but Harry Chapin's Cats in the Cradle is one song all my students have understood.
I use this song to generate discussion in almost every oral class I teach. Interesting difference in perspective between uni students and adult students at a training center. The uni students have better English skills, so perhaps are expressing themselves better. From the uni students I usually get the kinds of comments I expect: time together is important, kid missed his dad, "It makes me want to call my mother." The adults - some of whom have children living with grandparents in faraway provinces while they are in Dongguan working - said Dad did what he had to do in order to support his family. Hard for them, and they see it as love.