I'd appreciate feedback on this

I offer a sincere apology for two "These were deleted from ESL Cafe under mysterious circumstances" posts, but here I go.

I had asked about being able to find employment in China's universities, only possessing a Bachelors degree and with previous (non-China) teaching experience, but without certification. That inquiry was answered, but there was a related comment that I made and they deleted the thread before I could see if there was any feedback.

Some background: I recently paid off over thirty-thousand dollars (US) in student loans, and I am close to eliminating the rest of my debts. I am looking forward to teaching somewhere in China (at a university) around the winter of 2008. I do not live near an urban mecca, and there are no TEFL certification programs within reasonable distance. For me, the price of a reliable program, plus accommodation and travel expenses would actually be the same as flying to a job in China and later pursuing certification within China. I have previous TEFL experience (from that island that China has a big interest in, but I won't name it because I don't want the great firewall to ruin the saloon), so the primary interest I have in certification comes from the financial benefits and opportunities that become available to those who possess one.

Can anyone comment on this (http://www.teflcorp.com/tefl-beijing-china.htm)  particular program?

I figure I will enroll in the program if it is offered during the sumer or winter breaks in 2008/2009. I also plan to pursue a Masters in liberal arts through an honest, accredited distance learning institution - not an internet diploma mill - as I work abroad. That too would open up many opportunities and bring in greater income down the line. If anyone wants to add their advice, insight, opinions, thoughts, experiences, etc. I'm all

Hey Moon,

I don't have any information for you. However I do know that this topic has come up before and quite a few people were able to offer some great advise/links/experiences on this sort of thing. So I'll leave it to the experts to post their thoughts for you.

Good luck.

LT

Welcome Moon!

The name is well-known- they spent a lot of money on Marketing- but it's about all I know about 'em in terms of program specifics. I know who they are.

A certificate from this place probably won't have much impact in terms of "financial benefits and opportunities that become available". It might help make you eligible for more jobs, but so would just about any other TEFL certificate.

A lot of TEFL institutions partner with recruiting networks. I have become intensely suspicious of jobs offered through these means; perhaps so should you be. I have seen very strong indications of some graduates in some places being pipelined into the very worst jobs and schools in the business.

TEFL certificates mean a lot in Western Europe and other places. I think a lot of people, especially the newest arrivals, obsess over certificates way too much in China. There are still TONS of decent jobs one can get here with just a college degree; more so with a little teaching experience. Bottom Line: Certs don't make much of a difference in many China jobs. There's little difference in salary...the places that demand certs often don't pay any more than the places that don't. Many places in their job ads state a preference for certificates, but in practice you can usually negotiate these if you have experience and a degree. If you really do want to include a certificate on your resume, in many cases you're just as well off with an outright-purchased diploma from a mill as you are with anything even attempting to be a real one.

There is some difference if you have a CELTA or a Trinity certification. Like them or not, these certs do get noticed and respected and can open a lot more doors. If you're serious about making a career out of TEFL, and/or you want to teach in Europe or North America or Australia, get one of these certs...or better yet get a degree in TEFL and a givernment-accredited teaching certificate. If you're just in this for a while, or just testing the waters, I honestly don't think you should spend a lot of money or trouble on a certification if you're coming to China.

Here, the best reason to get a certificate is for YOU. If you think a program will genuinely teach you something you need to know about teaching EFL, and better prepare you to be a good teacher, then take it. Unfortunately for many of us, I think this kind of class ultimately entails real-time, on-site training that includes guided practicums in front of real classes. Even the most well-meaning online course simply can't offer you this one most important element.

You might try asking around at some of the local community colleges and so forth. Some of them- even in smaller cities- offer TEFL programs that are reasonably priced, convenient to home, and include the chance to get a little real guidance and experience in standing before a class and teaching English. Such a cert, if you can find one, will be every bit as good as, if not better than, one from the "specialists" on the China market.

By the way:
Why was this thread Mysteriously Blocked from The Greasy Spoon?

I suspect it may have much to do with the fact that some TEFL certificate companies are Major Sponsors of the Spoon. I suspect that the company you ask about is NOT a sponsor and hasn't paid for being publicized there. If ya let that happen, the Major Sponsors might question the need to go on being Major Sponsors.

Either way, we can't have this company discussed publicly and openly there.
If they're not a sponsor, the reason is obvious and is as stated above.
If they are a sponsor, well, someone might say less than flattering things about them. Why, someone might even question the need for buying their product at all!
Major Sponsors just hate  when that happens.

This is the main reason we don't have Major Sponsors here. We don't have Sponsors at all. And we never will. Certainly not from within the EFL industry. We may remain a relatively small voice, but we will definitely remain an independent one.
Dave's ESL Cafe simply can't say this. They have, sadly, slipped from being Part of the Solution, to being Part of the Problem.

Welcome aboard, Moon. Don't worry about being deleted from the Greasy Spoon. Happens to the best of us. I don't know anything about ESL Certificates. I've survived 5 years here without one. Teaching experience is more valuable.

I also plan to pursue a Masters in liberal arts through an honest, accredited distance learning institution - not an internet diploma mill - as I work abroad. That too would open up many opportunities and bring in greater income down the line.

If you're serious about a career in teaching English, why don't you forget the ESL Certificate and just do a Masters in TESOL or Applied Linguistics? You could be teaching here and doing one through distance learning. Getting your practical and theory at the same time.

There are some interesting papers you can do that you might be able to tie in with your interests in Liberal Arts.

Here's a link to one university that has good international standing: http://www.vuw.ac.nz/lals/degrees/masters.aspx

Thanks for the input, everyone!

I went in and looked at the web link you provided...it had been a while since I checked them out.

Dude, this place is really expensive...over 11,000 RMB for the course fees, excluding accommodation and living expenses! This is quite a chuck of change to spend on a piece of paper that's probably going to give you relatively little in the way of return, especially within China.

I still think it's very likely you'll be better off starting with no cert at all. If you really feel you must invest this kind of money on a cert, please consider applying it toward a CELTA or Trinity...something that might actually have a chance of making a real difference in your TEFL career.

I hear ya, Raoul. I've been looking into CELTA and Trinity in China but my search turns up sweet f. a. and I'm not going to Europe for certification and have no inclination to work, live or study there, either.

Who knows? I may very well end up just doing the distance learning thing for the Masters and save my Chinese holidays for self-indulgence. I find the advocates of CELTA are only those who forked over the dough to get one. They strike me as self-important and bent on pushing their papers as the ONLY valid papers. Hell, ESL Cafe is chock full of the CELTA thugs. Trinity receives far less of the self-perpetuating hype. Sadly, the CELTA mafia are ruling the roost, though I know there are as-good (if not better) programs out there that deserve the same cache.

I have experience (both as a TA in Uni and in ESL on that little island that China really seems to give a damn about) and my interest in the certification is for little  more than being able to present it to potential employers (China nad elsewhere) and receive consideration (and whatever extra salary I can get). An MA would definitely trump it, I suspect;it's probably best I just focus on that. Less political b. s. around it too.

Thanks again.

Hiya mop. I am both of those things most despised and vilified here -  an employer and a recruiter (luckily also a teacher, so they let me lurk in the corner. Images of the gimp in Pulp Fiction would be close to the mark.)

My 2 jioa's worth:

Degree, real ESL teaching experience - if you've got a Big-5 passport, a recent picture with a big, toothy smile and a whitish cast to your features I'd forget all about the certification programs and just start applying - it really doesn't mean much here unless you've got nothing else of value to hang your hat on. You won't get extra salary for it, that's for damn sure!

There are TEFL courses at around 2000 USD or less.  Some have a weekend component and some don't.  I believe Global (2000+) has one in the USA.  http://www.globaltefl.org/sit.html

I used Oxford Seminars.  They have many locations in the USA.  I found them very good (I took in Canada but it is the same course structure.  They are around 1000 USD. http://www.oxfordseminars.com/Pages/Teach/teach_dates.php  The text book they give is good.

What ND said is mostly true, but without the piece of paper, I wouldn't have gotten my first job in China.  Haven't needed it since but it was a requirement for my first University.

Thanks ND and DS! One related question - my previous English teaching experience was on that little island China has a lot of interest in. I know it's a hot-button, taboo subject for TEFLers' classrooms within China, but will Unis be turned off from hiring someone who spent teaching time on that island...?

I wouldn't think so. Any school bothered by that is probably not a place you want to work anyway.

$2000 US (~16,000 RMB) is just waaaay too damn much to pay for a cert...at least for China. That's even more than the outfit in Beijing was charging. Not even sure $1000 is worth it.
A lot of those college jobs pay less than $500 US (~4,000 RMB) per month. I figger there's no point in puttin' on your Sunday suit just to go out and slop the hogs.

I'm in 100% agreement with n-Dave's advice. But he has to go back in his cage now. 

Save your money.  Before I left the States, I got a TESOL Certification through Global TESOL College.  It's an outfit from Canada with branches all over.  I paid $800 for a 120 hour course (60 in class / 60 online).  It didn't help me land my current job (in Korea) or get me more money.  Thus far, in my China job search, not a single employer has asked for a copy of it, even though I proudly display it on my resume.  They want a picture, passport copy, university degree, and maybe reference letters.

In addition, since you already have practical ESL experience, you probably won't learn anything useful.

From the State Administration of Foreign Expert Affairs (SAFEA) Foreign Expert Guide:

Qualifying as a Foreign Expert

In order to teach legally in China, foreigners must qualify as foreign experts. 'Foreign experts' is a term for those foreign specialist workers with special skills, who are invited to work in China to meet the needs of the Chinese economic and social development. Once approved by the departments concerned they can be employed to work in China as foreign experts.

Every province in China has a department dedicated to the management and supervision of foreign experts in their area.

Foreign experts who are invited to work in China can be classified as follows:

   1. Foreign educational, scientific, cultural and medical experts.
      These refer to those experts who are employed by Chinese schools and other educational establishments in such fields as publication, medicine, scientific research, culture and art, and sports. These individuals must hold a minimum of a bachelor's degree and have more than two years of 'life' experience. As such recent graduates from university may encounter some difficulty obtaining legal employment as a teacher in China.
   2. Foreign economic, technical and managerial experts.
      These are foreign professionals who are invited to work on either a long-term or short-term basis by Chinese government agencies, economic and social managerial departments, or by units in the fields of industry, commerce, finance, politics and law. This group includes foreign specialists sent by foreign corporations to carry out agreements between governments or international organizations, as well as those invited directly by work units to engage in technology and management.
      These individuals must meet at least one of the following criteria:
          * Hold at least a bachelor's degree;
          * Have at least five years work experience in a relevant field and maintain trade qualifications;
          * Possess particular skills needed by China;
          * Have at least five years experience of working abroad in a management position of a large or medium-sized foreign enterprise or hi-tech enterprise.
   3. Representatives of foreign expert organizations or resident representative offices of agencies ratified by the State Bureau of Foreign Experts Affairs of China and registered by the industrial, commercial, or administrative offices.

The State Bureau of Foreign Experts Affairs of China (SBFEAC) is the official wing of the central government charged with managing the affairs of foreign experts living and working in China. These responsibilities are further dispersed through a network of foreign affairs and foreign expert offices at a provincial level throughout China.

In most cases, for one to meet the government's requirements for legal employment as a foreign English teacher you need to:

   1. Be a Native English Speaker from a native English speaking country
      The following list of countries includes those generally considered as being English-speaking countries. Listed countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, United Kingdom and the United States.
   2. Have Minimum Tertiary Education Qualifications
      Teachers must meet the following standards:
         1. Bachelor's degree in any discipline AND
         2. Have at least two years 'life experience'.
   3. Be willing and able to sign a minimum of a one-year contract
      In most cases your employer will need to view your original documents in order to process your paperwork, so be sure to bring this with you. In most cases transcripts and letters from your university will be insufficient.

You can read the official SAFEA Foreign Expert Guide - PM me for the link.