Oral English is the Least Important Class?!

And the only thing that they seem to buy into, and they do if you go through the painstaking process of laying it all out for them, is that there IS a benefit to a Spoken English class as a chance to CONSOLIDATE the 4 skills. Right now and as the TEM 4 is approaching.

Christ kabob! The way to trick them into taking speaking a language seriously is to convince them it will help them pass an academic skills test. Probably true. That's right. The half hour they could invest in my class per week will undoubtedly contribute more to their passing their vaunted TEM4 exams than a hour in the library making a keyboard waffle print on their forehead passed out "studying" on their own. Anything they do for my class will be rewarded somewhat, as I will at least play some review game, and the topics will come up again and their increased skill will help their performance in class. Some get this, but others are blinded by the poopoganda.

Generally speaking, I think speaking English is very useful for all of them as living human beings in the 21st century because it opens up the rest of the world to them. Often in our "Oral English" classes (I also have the same problem with "oral" as Borkya does) they learn not only some speaking skills, but also learn about other cultures, are encouraged to express their own opinions, be creative, use humor, cooperate, and other capacities that seem well outside the rest of their curriculum.

That I do agree with and emphasize greatly to my students that they are limiting themselves horribly by not knowing or having good skills in English.
I try to show them how the world sees them and try to change the way in which they view the world, if only a little.
If I make an impact on even some of the students I'm very happy about it.

No, I definitely agree with you in theory BD. Ideally, I think that all people should learn a foreign language, especially people majoring in the language. There are loads of benefits to learning a language, and it shouldn't matter whether that language is Chinese or Turkish or Inuit, just learning a language for the sake of learning one is a worthwhile persuit. I tried to teach myself Swedish when I was in elementary school and there are probably very few languages that are less useful in real life than Swedish but I certainly didn't care, I was just into learning it (we had Swedish family friends and I picked it up fairly quickly from them)! Over the years since I've studied Spanish, Japanese, and finally Chinese. Language learning is an enriching experience whether or not there are any concrete rewards or advantages to doing so. Just because English is not really necessarily going to be of vital importance to their future lives doesn't mean that they shouldn't learn it (if they want to).

That said, I can understand why Chinese students don't prioritize language learning, specifically oral (teehee) language learning. When they are older and wiser and able to understand that there is value in learning things just for the sake of learning them, then they might regret that they didn't take advantage of this awesome opportunity they have to learn English from a native speaker. I understand you not wanting them to have those regrets too (and give you kudos for trying to get them to see the light), I just think that they're too wrapped up in their own worlds at the moment to really think about their classes as anything more than a means to an end. For most students though oral English proficiency is more of a "want" than a "need," and so it just doesn't get the same sort of priority that the "needs" (like passing the TEM4 or the PE exam) get.

Quote from: Borkya on May 02, 2011, 02:20:36 AM

Quote from: teacheraus on May 02, 2011, 01:25:59 AM

The TEM4/CET4 both do not involve speaking

That's not true. The TEM4 does have a speaking component. It just happens one month after the written part, any my students are really worried about it.

Sorry. Your "That's not true" @ teacheraus is just not true.

There is no speaking component (yet) to the TEM 4. The CET 6 does have one IF you register a high enough score on the regular CET 6. I'm sure if you ask those of your students who are worried about their upcoming spoken test that it's a CET test and not a TEM test. (Some English majors DO register to also take the CET tests.)

The unpcoming test is definitely the CET Speaking Test. It is actually a seperate test to the CET4/CET6 and as you said requires a high score (not just a pass) on the previous tests . You do not need the CET 6 just a high score on CET4 to be eligible to apply to sit it. So only the best students even have the option of sitting the CET Speaking Test.

I agree with many of the points reaised in this thread - and guess that I have actually been lucky to overall have classes that do not face me with the motivation issues. Most of my classes are elective classes that are taken by people who want to improve their spoken Wnglish - But another point that hasn't specifically been raised is that while the initial tests may not involve speaking - they do involve listening - and the chance to listen and talk to a native speaker in person is something that can potentially help their listening as well as their speaking. That is part of the reason why some of the best universities do try to have foreign teachers from a range of different countries so that the students can hear a range of different accents.   

The IELTS test does have a speaking component. It is true that most Chinese do not have a chance to communicate in English. I have met several Chinese people that were able to get around this. Their English is pretty good. They overcame this by simply watching American TV shows and movies. There are some web sites in China that allow these to be downloaded and they include close captioning in Chinese. Just a thought.

I teach a lot of IELTS and I implore my students NOT to watch Amer/Can/Aust/whatever television shows. The only thing they do is get them to respond quicker, but not better.

Now, for everyday regular diatribe, Amer/Can/Aust/whatever television shows are perfect. I've had a girl do they Joey from Friends complete with eyeball, hip action and the attitude. She walked up to me and said, "How you doing?" I had to bite my lip to stop laughing my ass off

No, I definitely agree with you in theory BD. Ideally, I think that all people should learn a foreign language, especially people majoring in the language. There are loads of benefits to learning a language, and it shouldn't matter whether that language is Chinese or Turkish or Inuit, just learning a language for the sake of learning one is a worthwhile persuit.

I happen to agree with this. I had to learn French in college (well, I chose it rather than a couple other options), and I was intrigued by learning a foreign language. Later I decided to learn Thai (I had a Thai gf in the US) and knew full well it was useless outside of Thailand, but was just fascinated by it because of the squiggly characters and just how bizarre and different a language it was. Later I tried to learn Vietnamese but that's not actually a language at all, just a serious of noises people make to fool everyone into thinking they can speak.

…I just think that they're too wrapped up in their own worlds at the moment to really think about their classes as anything more than a means to an end. For most students though oral English proficiency is more of a "want" than a "need," and so it just doesn't get the same sort of priority that the "needs" (like passing the TEM4 or the PE exam) get.

While I agree with you that learning a language such as Swedish or Gaelic or Thai is almost useless outside of the intrinsic value of learning another language, I think learning English (which is the international language!) is different because it allows one access to the rest of the world. In your and my case we speak the international language but have taken it upon ourselves, and made a hobby of, learning obscure languages for kicks. But for a Chinese student, it's the opposite. Some of my students learn Russian or Japanese as their 2nd foreign language and I can see it's almost useless unless they pursue something specifically related to those languages in their futures. But we're talking about English majors learning the international language.

I'm getting redundant with the "the future will be different" trope, but, change as relates to technology accelerates, and in my own lifetime we've gone from computers being little more than adding machines to being absolutely essential and central for most people in the developed world. [we're sitting in front of them now, and this wasn't even Science Fiction when I was a teenager.] In another 30-40 years, unless the environmental devastation we are imposing on ourselves back-slaps us back into the stone age, technological advancements and other societal changes should be unprecedented. The isolated cement world of guanxi and corruption and baiju and mahjong and all the rest will, mostly likely, be gone. Speaking the international language will have increasing relevance as the world becomes smaller, more transparent, and more about intellectual capital than just working to put food on the table.

Quote from: old34 on May 02, 2011, 04:46:28 AM

Quote from: Borkya on May 02, 2011, 02:20:36 AM

Quote from: teacheraus on May 02, 2011, 01:25:59 AM

The TEM4/CET4 both do not involve speaking

That's not true. The TEM4 does have a speaking component. It just happens one month after the written part, any my students are really worried about it.

Sorry. Your "That's not true" @ teacheraus is just not true.

There is no speaking component (yet) to the TEM 4. The CET 6 does have one IF you register a high enough score on the regular CET 6. I'm sure if you ask those of your students who are worried about their upcoming spoken test that it's a CET test and not a TEM test. (Some English majors DO register to also take the CET tests.)

The unpcoming test is definitely the CET Speaking Test. It is actually a seperate test to the CET4/CET6 and as you said requires a high score (not just a pass) on the previous tests . You do not need the CET 6 just a high score on CET4 to be eligible to apply to sit it. So only the best students even have the option of sitting the CET Speaking Test.

No, it's the TEM4 I am talking about and it does have an oral component. A quick google search will give you plenty of practice oral tests

http://alastairclark.com/2009/07/example-tem4-oral-test-2/


And I found this when the TEM4 started the oral portion.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TEFLChina/message/6838

And here is some academic paper about grading the oral portion of the TEM4.
http://www.celea.org.cn/teic/72/72-09.pdf

 i think there is an argument that chinese are feeling the need less and less to learn english. As china grows economically there is an increasing feeling of independence ie. we are ok and secure. whereas before it was a desperate clamour to learn english in order to do trade overseas.

ive only been here for 4 years and feel this is a growing trend gauged  from my students over the years in a private school with top fees. Local university heads and teachers in other colleges tell me that the overall level of english ability is dropping year on year.  It would be interesting to get a perspective from those that have been here longer.

i doubt it means that the foreign teacher job market will dry up any time soon as its always a good carrot to have white pandas wandering around campus, however i notice the salaries offered arent anything exciting unless you are prepared to do a 40 hour week.

^ Hmmm. interesting.

i think there is an argument that chinese are feeling the need less and less to learn english. As china grows economically there is an increasing feeling of independence ie. we are ok and secure. whereas before it was a desperate clamour to learn english in order to do trade overseas.

I guess only some are/were in it for trade. But I think some mistakenly believe that if China is powerful enough Chinese might become the universal language. I disabuse my students of that fallacious logic by telling them it's not just a matter of who is strongest, but also of which language can be learned easiest. Chinese is way too difficult for everyone to learn.

Another possibility is that closer to when China fist opened up to the West is was seen as a huge advantage to be able to speak English, and now it's not such a rarity and there's always thousands who speak better than your average student.

So, nowadays it's less about having an easy edge over ones comrades, but more about not being left behind, so to speak.

I've had this argument too. Even though Manderin outstrips English speakers by a 2:1 margin, really only Singapore (marginally globally important) and Malasia speak Chinese as a national language. In the G8 there is the UK, Canada and USA. When expanded to the G20 includes South Africa and Australia. And if you include India, you have the majority of business and a large portion of the population as English speakers.

Even as a traveller whether in Europe, South America or Africa, you are more likely to communicate in English far more often than Chinese. Unless you go to Vancouver

Quote from: teacheraus on May 02, 2011, 08:51:01 AM

Quote from: old34 on May 02, 2011, 04:46:28 AM

Quote from: Borkya on May 02, 2011, 02:20:36 AM

Quote from: teacheraus on May 02, 2011, 01:25:59 AM

The TEM4/CET4 both do not involve speaking

That's not true. The TEM4 does have a speaking component. It just happens one month after the written part, any my students are really worried about it.

Sorry. Your "That's not true" @ teacheraus is just not true.

There is no speaking component (yet) to the TEM 4. The CET 6 does have one IF you register a high enough score on the regular CET 6. I'm sure if you ask those of your students who are worried about their upcoming spoken test that it's a CET test and not a TEM test. (Some English majors DO register to also take the CET tests.)

The unpcoming test is definitely the CET Speaking Test. It is actually a seperate test to the CET4/CET6 and as you said requires a high score (not just a pass) on the previous tests . You do not need the CET 6 just a high score on CET4 to be eligible to apply to sit it. So only the best students even have the option of sitting the CET Speaking Test.

No, it's the TEM4 I am talking about and it does have an oral component. A quick google search will give you plenty of practice oral tests

http://alastairclark.com/2009/07/example-tem4-oral-test-2/


And I found this when the TEM4 started the oral portion.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TEFLChina/message/6838

And here is some academic paper about grading the oral portion of the TEM4.
http://www.celea.org.cn/teic/72/72-09.pdf

I stand very much corrected.  

I have spent the better part of the day tracking down answers (hard to do on a "holiday"), but Borkya did not misspeak.

I'll post what I found out about Oral TEMs today tomorrow...and in a new thread. What I learned today is very interesting, in a good way, for those of us who ply the Oral English for English majors trade at universities.

But for now, my apologies to Borkya for questioning her original post: You were right.