Angelina's, and Raoul's Recruiter Rant

Meaty issue, ain't it?

Yes, you CAN get screwed by the school. In fact, the odds are pretty good that you will, in one way or another. Fact of life for teachers in China.

Adding a recruiter to the mix takes you to TWO organizations who might screw you over...increasing your odds dramatically.

I'm glad some of you have had safe experiences with recruiters, but this doesn't really reflect the overall big picture.

Recruiters are dodgy to negotiate with. What they tell you is often done without involvement from the school. Many, many people have negotiated the deal they want, migrated from Kansas to Gansu, only to find that the school had no knowledge of the promises made...and no intention whatsoever of honoring tham.

Recruiters willingly lie to make their clients look more attractive. They promise Hainan...and deliver Inner Mongolia.

When things like this happen, the school will simply fault the recruiter...who by then is off somewhere counting their money with a merry giggle, and won't even remember who you are. If you deal directly with the school, you're more likely to be getting the straight dope on what the school will give you, and the school has somewhat more obligation to live up to promises.

Recruiters also tout jobs in remote small towns- OK, maybe, but definitely not for everyone.
Recruiters tout jobs in the 3000-4500 RMB range. I'm trying to respect assertions that it's enough. I have a hard time seeing it. It can't possibly leave much money for travel and fun unless you're spending most every night at home...uh, not traveling or having fun. Are you really coming here just to work?
Recruiters tout jobs that many people would never take...if they knew any better. And most of us just coming in simply don't.

Deal direct. Get what you want. Don't come until you do.

I agree strongly with the advice that if the school has no one who can speak English, you most probably don't want to go there. A recipe for disaster and abuse and misunderstanding.

I agree strongly with the advice that if the school has no one who can speak English, you most probably don't want to go there. A recipe for disaster and abuse and misunderstanding.

Or a recipe for a wonderful year of adventures

One method I read about (but admittedly never actually followed through all the way to employment) is to find a school you like the sound of on a recruiters site, then simply find that school's website (Google the name - they almost all have them) and get a contact email to deal with the school directly.

I did this, it does work and I'm currently doing it now as I hunt for jobs back in NZ.

Coming to China, I had to job-hunt from outside of China and was in the common dilemma of having to give notice months in advance before I even had a job organised here. Agents and recruiters took a lot of stress off me as I used them whilst simultaneously searching by myself. I was fairly specific as to location and type of school I wanted to teach in, so in the end found the best deal without a recruiter.

And luckily for me it worked out

This works. www.chinatefl.com is useful in this regard.

This is the way I found my first job in China.  I dealt directly with the University.  The first job offer fell through, but I got a second offer a couple of days later and ended up in Wuxi.  I got my second job through a job fair in Shanghai.  I plan on staying here for awhile.  The Director told me yesterday that I can stay here as many years as I want.  (As long as I don't get sick and can't teach!)  Two teachers who missed a lot of classes did not get their contracts renewed.

You're right...there will never be any structure on our side regarding salaries. There are too many who just don't care about the money very much (adventurous retirees, missionaries, would-be so-called well-meaning "volunteers", etc.) and too many who just don't know any better.

As one of those adventurous retirees, I have a bit to say.  I will chime in with Vegemite and LE about working in a uni for 4500 + RMB as being adequate.  Given the real world situation of living in China versus living in one's home country there is much to consider.  First off, many here wouldn't be able to do this back home - lack of qualifications becomes a serious issue.  Secondly, teaching in our home countries is not all that well paid.  American or Canadian dollars, it doesn't matter, teachers, especially beginning teachers don't earn that much and as a result don't enjoy such a big life-style. 

Here in China, I earn more than enought to eat WELL, socialize, travel, have toys, have a nice place to park my pillow, am treated like a VIP, make cool friends both face-to-face and here at the saloon.  The uni and FAO bend over backwards to see that I stay happy so that I will return.  Not that they do this for all the FTs here, with reason - some are just not that good at the job that they have been hired for. 

I am surprised that our English speaking colleagues haven't started a revolution of their own in order to get parity - equal pay for equal work.  I wouldn't complain about more money, but let's face it, we really do have it well here.  Try being Chinese and being a teacher.  I am a teacher, have always been a teacher.  This is an adventure for me and the missus.  We don't need the money but we live well, VERY well here in China without touching our Canadian funds. 

As for recruiters, I would like to echo the thought - there is no need for a middle man/woman.  Do the work, take a chance on dealing directly with your choice of schools.  If all else fails, come over for a visit and chat it up with a number of educational establishments of your choosing and I am sure that it wouldn't be long before you found your self at the school of your choice.

 If all else fails, come over for a visit and chat it up with a number of educational establishments of your choosing and I am sure that it wouldn't be long before you found your self at the school of your choice.

This is one of the reasons that Hubby and I are planning a month-long visit at the end of '08.  It will be a combination vacation and LookSee-with-interviews.  I'm too old (and too timid...I am the Bunny, after all...and a bit OCD about arrangements) to want to jump into anything this radical, without seeing exactly what/who/where.

I totally agree that recruiters are not necessary.   I was talking to a young FT today who has been totally screwed over and is probably being paid the lowest hourly rate in Dongguan.  She is seriously worried that she won't have enough to live on once the high schools go on holidays.  I really felt for this young woman, she doesn't deserve this.
As the saying goes, " you don't get what you deserve but what you negoiate."

 This is a case where the recruiter is the employer and contracting the teachers out to a company who contracts the teachers out again.  Appalling situation. Shame.  It makes me so bloody angry.  I get heaps of work on my own and am beholden to no one.   If I don't want to travel 50 minutes to a job and not be paid for travel time.  I don't have to.

I am negoiating a contract with a big company at the moment and I am finding it really interesting and a learning curve.   I will stick to what I want because I am not desperate and will not accept anything lower than 300 and hour plus transport.
I put a lot of time and energy into my presentaion and outline of the curriculum.  Which is not wasted as I can use it again and again.  They loved it but I know there are other language  centres after the same contract.  I will not budge and the Chinese English teacher that I am going to use is excellent and she will certainly get at least 100 an hour.
Also I have become aware that the companies would prefer to deal directly with the teacher, they also don't want to deal with the middle guy.
So my Chinese English teacher friend of 5 years and I go out and look for the work ourselves.  We make a good team.

That is why it imporant to have enough funds so that you don't have to accept anything that comes along.

I think that there are enough people here on the forum that are willing to guide you through, some great advice and insights.

I've been researching the offerings from Universities, Colleges and Vo-Tech "Colleges" throughout China, and on numerous sites, and in no way have I observed anything above 4,500 being the "norm." This applies ot big cities and small. Jobs offering 5,000 or more are rarer, but also they generally request more hours.

RD, do you have a Master's degree? You've been in China for a while,and because of that you have more in-country references and contacts and experience, but for the average China first-timer with only a Bachelor's, it appears that jobs above 4,500 for starting salary are not the norm, but an exception.

I'm glad I have the luxury of scouting long ahead of time (not as far in advance as Amonk (I think it was Amonk who mentioned coming in late 2008), but starting gigs with or without the middleman seem to top out at 4,500 for a Bachelor's degree. Most are 4,000 (with implications of negotiation) for 12-16 hours of work. I'm talking like 90% of the listings.

If you know of listings for average 5000 RMB jobs, please do tell. All of the links referenced here, on the Saloon - plus several that aren't - seem to indicate that 4000-4500 is the norm. I also see an inordinate amount of insane 3000 RMB for 16 hour positions being offered by schools (many directly from their university's page). That seems really extreme and sets an alarm off in my head.

Yeah, 4K-4500 is indeed very common.
However, that's not the same thing as meaning we should take these jobs.

I talk to many, many people who get really uptight and desperate when seeking work in China. They strike at the first job that comes along and...ironically...feel grateful to get it.
This is wrong.

I'm saying that there ARE starter jobs that pay 5K and up. They're not the majority, but it's just not that hard for a newbie to pull down 5-6,000 a month. It can be done...but you'll have to be willing to take the time it might require to find something better. If people panic and rush blindly into working here, one price they will pay for this is an inferior job.

In our own countries, it's generally pretty easy to find jobs we don't want, right? And finding something decent takes more time and effort, right?
Well, it's exactly the same here.

If you're just hell-bent on coming to China NOW and aren't willing to take the time to do it right, 4K is about the best you can expect.

If you're willing to or prefer to live in a small town, the money won't be as good. 5-6K is likely a CEILING here; you may well start at 4K.

If you're willing to work low hours in a public school, 4K is indeed going to be the norm for you.

I just want people to try and go for better than minimum...better than average, even.
I want people to come here and have a nice experience and a reasonable, enjoyable lifestyle...which is tougher to do on 4K a month.

I also want us to get some small token of what our work is typically worth to the school's owners. A lot of folks here are getting very rich upon our willingness to accept a minimal lifestyle in China.

Perhaps if these 4K jobs start finding themselves unable to get teachers, those jobs will gradually become 5K+ jobs. This would be a good thing.

Moon, yes, I do have a Master's. However, it was completely irrelevant for my very first job in China...which paid me 6K.

I just want people to try and go for better than minimum...better than average, even.
I want people to come here and have a nice experience and a reasonable, enjoyable lifestyle...which is tougher to do on 4K a month.

I also want us to get some small token of what our work is typically worth to the school's owners. A lot of folks here are getting very rich upon our willingness to accept a minimal lifestyle in China.

I'm a university teacher working 16hours for 4500RMB per month in a small city in northern China - and the life style I live here is far from minimal. I have a lot more disposable income than I ever had in NZ, and I can afford things I never could do in NZ.

I think what is qualified as a 'miminal' lifestyle depends on the individual and where they happen to be living. Maybe 4500RMB wouldn't go far in some of the big cities, but up here it's fine.

As to finding the jobs with the big bucks, they are out there - I've seen a few advertised, but, yep, the majority hover around the 3500 - 5000 mark. I suppose it also really depends on why you're coming here, as to whether you want the big bucks or not. I know I could get a lot more if I worked at one of the International Schools or even tried some of the private schools, but I really enjoy working minimal hours for a decent living wage.

Yeah, 4K-4500 is indeed very common.
However, that's not the same thing as meaning we should take these jobs.

In our own countries, it's generally pretty easy to find jobs we don't want, right?

It depends where you are located. If I didn't have this lousy paying local television gig (part time and while cushy, it is lean living), I'd be back out competing for crappy jobs nobody wants and the pickings are slim for those jobs in thes area as well. There's more able-bodied people than work.... That's the lcoal economy of where I am staying. Anyway, it's different in other areas. As I've mentioned before, even at 4,500 RMB a month I'd only be making $1000 U. S. less per year than I am now, but would most likely be saving more money (I can't save any now) in China.

If you're willing to work low hours in a public school, 4K is indeed going to be the norm for you.

And that's where I fall. I want to enjoy the 12-16 hours of "work" and spend the rest of my time dusting off the guo yu putonghua and improving it ten-fold, while living comfortably, saving little corners here and there, and working on personal projects.
For language mills/training centers, corporate work - there's defintely good paying work out there, but there's trade-offs for it.

I'm only talking about Uni gigs.

I also want us to get some small token of what our work is typically worth to the school's owners. A lot of folks here are getting very rich upon our willingness to accept a minimal lifestyle in China.

Indeed, but it's tough when you can't unionize, and then tougher when you have people who want to profit from the undercutting. Easier said than done. I'm stymied how someone could take a 3000 RMB a month (or less) gig anywhere.

Perhaps if these 4K jobs start finding themselves unable to get teachers, those jobs will gradually become 5K+ jobs. This would be a good thing.

Moon, yes, I do have a Master's. However, it was completely irrelevant for my very first job in China...which paid me 6K.

I remember you mentioned it was a buxiban, is that correct? They do pay more, and I think for buxibans I'm 100% in agreement with your stance and calls for solidarity, and as for Unis, 85% in agreement with your stance. For buxiban work I can find ooodles of gigs that pay well over 5-6K for less than 25 hours of work at the drop of a hat.

As to finding the jobs with the big bucks, they are out there - I've seen a few advertised, but, yep, the majority hover around the 3500 - 5000 mark. I suppose it also really depends on why you're coming here, as to whether you want the big bucks or not. I know I could get a lot more if I worked at one of the International Schools or even tried some of the private schools, but I really enjoy working minimal hours for a decent living wage.

I'm on the outside looking in right now, but I fall in your camp, Veg. I am only looking for uni work and see the pros youv'e talked about as being very possible and realistically achieved.

 However, on the buxiban front, I'm with Raoul. Minimum should be 5-6K for anthing 12-20 hours (depending on location) and then upwards. I think the hogwan/buxiban/eikaiwa salaries are stagnant in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan; and in China, if people settle for less then there's no room for the teachers to profit from their labor like their laoban are/will.

 During my recent job search I received three University job offers paying 5500, 6000 and 7000. None were over 20 hours a week and none were in Beijing, Shanghai or Guangdong. I also saw a job ad in Qingdao that was offering acredited teachers 15 k a month. Good paying jobs are not as hard to come by as you think. Even here(where a middle school salary is 3900) it is possible to make 6-10,000 if you you are willing to put in 30-40 hours a week. Personally I will take a lower salary over a heavy workload but even then you can still do a lot better than 4500.

 Often times the best jobs aren't advertised but found through networking, legwork and research. That's where most people screw themselves. They either don't know this or are simply too busy/lazy to put in the time to find a decent job and instead turn to recruiters or places like the Spoon.

Thanks, Decurso. I often feel like a candle in a hurricane on this one.

He's absolutely right. There ARE better jobs here and they're worth seeking out. You won't find them if you rush the process or if you turn to recruiters or mass-market job listings like the Greasy Spoon.

A lot of people always seem to spring forth and defend salaries in the 4-4.5K range. I guess if it works for you, it's OK. I'm not attacking or looking down on anyone's lifestyle here. I think it entails a willingness to stay in jobs that provide on-campus housing and in general keep you rather closely tied.
I'm not willing to do that any more. I want a bit more autonomy, and 4500 a month just doersn't cut it.
And either way, it's just hard to imagine having much money to travel, cover emergencies, and more on a salary of 4,000 per month.

I want us to get a fairer piece of the pies we help bake here. I'm all for a good honest profit, but I feel very deeply that too many of us are being very badly used here. I want expat teachers to improve their lot in China.
But as long as so many of us leap into low salaries, and expound upon how wonderful it all is, this is just never going to happen.
Sometimes I think I should just give this one up.

But as long as so many of us leap into low salaries, and expound upon how wonderful it all is, this is just never going to happen.
Sometimes I think I should just give this one up. unhunh
It seems as long as the majority of FTs, even those with decent quals and experience, rationalise along the lines of "I've got more disposable income here than back home" [which was squat: be honest], I guess you're right.
The good news is that for those Q and E people, there are some jobs paying better than peanuts.
Often being in China isn't the way to access them though. Places recruiting in China want their FTs cheap and transient.

Another point to consider.....the native Chinese get paid way less than the FTs.  This inequality in pay/work conditions is not an uncommon happenstance all around the world - Native vs Foreigner.

Often, the Local Folk get irritated and upset by the higher salaries and perks given to the outsiders (who are not necessarily any better qualified or more experienced than the Natives! _{and may even be in need of training by the Local staffer}) will rebel/remonstrate/demonstrate/take (union) action to correct the situation.  And the salaries paid will become more equal.....higher for the Locals....and the working conditions will likewise get better for Natives.  Trust me on this one.  I have seen/experienced it here.

Think about it this way.....If, as FTs, we accept the pay/work conditions, we are actually re-inforcing the Bosses' attitudes and we are - in the long run - doing a grave DISservice to the Chinese teachers!!